So how would you buff bard? (Just like to hear peoples thoughts)

I am still amazed that bard has become the defacto dotmancer in pve content. If they want to simplify the dots, add a trait in 8.0 that makes Iron Jaws into a passive effect that causes the dots to last until the target dies, like blue mage's Mortal Flame. As that is already what it effectively does about every 44 or so seconds, similar to black mage's enochian or monk's greased lightning. Then a new button to push that is basically Bane where you spread the dots onto nearby enemies.

Not saying I don't have the same question for Bard's DoTs as they exist right now, too, but...

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

...add a trait in 8.0 that makes Iron Jaws into a passive effect that causes the dots to last until the target dies, like blue mage's Mortal Flame... Then a new button to push that is basically Bane where you spread the dots onto nearby enemies.

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...Why though?

If you only apply the DoTs twice per first enemy and then just once again per simultaneously- or near-simultaneously-spawning wave of enemies thereafter... why spend 3 buttons on that at all? Frequency and the ability to leverage snapshotting each add interest, even if in individually mild fashion. An infinite-duration two-part DoT, though, is like exercise in intentional button bloat.

I'd far rather see those skills made individually more interesting, including by greater frequency, and improve general UI as necessary to accommodate that if they remain DoTs (e.g., placing the current/latest target DoT timers... on the DoT's icons + allowing one's DoTs to be tracked from the enmity list if realistically likely ever to waste duration if a reapplication is mistimed).

I get that your response is built around "If the devs want to further simplify X", but... must we even ponder that route, let alone supply yet more ideas that would be as terrible as those we've seen in that vein from the devs?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not saying I don't have the same question for Bard's DoTs as they exist right now, too, but...


...Why though?

If you only apply the DoTs twice per first enemy and then just once again per simultaneously- or near-simultaneously-spawning wave of enemies thereafter... why spend 3 buttons on that at all? Frequency and the ability to leverage snapshotting each add interest, even if in individually mild fashion. An infinite-duration two-part DoT, though, is like exercise in intentional button bloat.

I'd far rather see those skills made individually more interesting, including by greater frequency, and improve general UI as necessary to accommodate that if they remain DoTs (e.g., placing the current/latest target DoT timers... on the DoT's icons + allowing one's DoTs to be tracked from the enmity list if realistically likely ever to waste duration if a reapplication is mistimed).

I get that your response is built around "If the devs want to further simplify X", but... must we even ponder that route, let alone supply yet more ideas that would be as terrible as those we've seen in that vein from the devs?

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Seems you misunderstood what I said.

Iron Jaws (reworked): Level 56 trait. Stormbite and Caustic Bite have infinite duration.
New button: Level 56 ability. Spreads Stormbite and Caustic Bite onto nearby enemies.

First effect: New button is used for trash packs and whatever adds are spawned during a boss fight.
Second effect: Stormbite and Caustic Bite don't have to be tracked by the player after the initial buff window. Meaning you have technically 3 less buttons to track as the fight continues.

Reason one: Look at what happened to black mage's thunder in dawntrail. Look at what happened to old summoner endwalker. Either de emphasized or removed entirely. And what has happened to bard? The dots are de emphasized.
Reason two: If CBU3 cared about a job that is reliant on dots, they would have taken old summoner and repackaged it as a new job with traits and abilities that emphasis dot usage as a means to make it more distinct from new summoner.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

I am still amazed that bard has become the defacto dotmancer in pve content.

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Can you even really call it a "dotmancer" when the job's interaction with DoTs has been reduced to a vestige of it's former self?
All it does nowadays is occasionally proc Hawk's Eye, something already covered by Burst Shot.
They don't even buff Sidewinder's damage anymore, let alone interact with your songs in any way.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Can you even really call it a "dotmancer" when the job's interaction with DoTs has been reduced to a vestige of it's former self?
All it does nowadays is occasionally proc Hawk's Eye, something already covered by Burst Shot.
They don't even buff Sidewinder's damage anymore, let alone interact with your songs in any way.

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Yeah exactly, 1 DoT skill every 45 seconds is about on the level most Samurai do, and less than Black Mage or the healers.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Seems you misunderstood what I said.

Iron Jaws (reworked): Level 56 trait. Stormbite and Caustic Bite have infinite duration.
New button: Level 56 ability. Spreads Stormbite and Caustic Bite onto nearby enemies.

First effect: New button is used for trash packs and whatever adds are spawned during a boss fight.
Second effect: Stormbite and Caustic Bite don't have to be tracked by the player after the initial buff window. Meaning you have technically 3 less buttons to track as the fight continues.

Reason one: Look at what happened to black mage's thunder in dawntrail. Look at what happened to old summoner endwalker. Either de emphasized or removed entirely. And what has happened to bard? The dots are de emphasized.
Reason two: If CBU3 cared about a job that is reliant on dots, they would have taken old summoner and repackaged it as a new job with traits and abilities that emphasis dot usage as a means to make it more distinct from new summoner.

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No, that is exactly what I understood the idea to mean and what I responded to. Again, what point is there in detailing out what the devs should do if they wish to de-emphasize a gameplay component further? We have no reason to want that and there's no compensatory favorable changes postulated that would require theorizing which unwanted thing we get stuck with.

Delete the dot, problem solved

That sounds pretty radical, especially considering that it may alienate a lot of BRD mains and people having played it since forever. I'd be cautious with such reworks personally.
I'd agree though that in its current state the dot has lost most of its substance, but perhaps the solution would be to reintroduce a lot of what has been lost instead of doing what SE does best: axing stuff without any counterpart.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That sounds pretty radical

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It might sound radical but if the changes from 5.0 until now are an indicator of the direction then it's not all that unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Valence

especially considering that it may alienate a lot of BRD mains and people having played it since forever. I'd be cautious with such reworks personally.

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They've probably been alienated after they butchered Stormblood Bard.

Shadowbringers was probably the worst offender here.
You had all the restrictions of your DoTs still proccing your songs but with a flat 35% rate, so none of the excitement from getting crits back-to-back or snapshotting your DoTs with all the crit buffs.
Not to mention that they thought it was a good idea to remove all party support from Bard in 5.0 because they needed to sell the shiny new Dancer.

I don't think the job has ever really recovered from that.

I mean I agree with you there.

But what do you mean by "snapshotting your DoTs with all the crit buffs"? You can still do that. DoTs get buffed by crit raid buffs.