FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

I think nudging healers into kind of a more of a generalist support role could be helpful. Like cut back on the quantity of healing actions a little bit, and giving them more more non healing/defensive utility to play with. generally I think healer damage rotations need to be kept simple, but not like how it is now. Making a spam rotation that is fun, and flexible will be the hardest thing to get right.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think nudging healers into kind of a more of a generalist support role could be helpful. Like cut back on the quantity of healing actions a little bit, and giving them more more non healing/defensive utility to play with. generally I think healer damage rotations need to be kept simple, but not like how it is now. Making a spam rotation that is fun, and flexible will be the hardest thing to get right.

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That was the goal here, take the WHM for example. 'DOT duration shortened to 12s, new action with 15s CD' isn't an incredibly high amount of rotational complexity IMO, but because of the potency tuning I've listed, it'd be incredibly easy to delay the casting of Banish by a GCD or two (losing an average of about 6.6 potency per GCD it's not used), in order to line it up with a movement section where you can't get a Glare cast in normally (which then allows you to get 370p in a GCD where you'd normally get 0p, and therefore overpowers any 'lost' potency caused by delaying the Banish cast). Also, because the initial potency of Dia is raised here compared to DT (150p here, 65 in DT), even spamming that for mobility would be higher potency and less 'punishing' to your damage in this design, compared to the current game, adding more flexibility to the job. And that's just WHM

I think that when it comes to 'rotational complexity', we need to look at two things: one, what we had in Stormblood. HW was too complicated and janky (hence it had to change), Shadowbringers is regarded as 'a step too far', SB sits in this middle ground where we still had some meat on the bone, but it was undeniably more 'accessible' than HW due to Cleric Stance being effectively removed (and our damage scaling from Mind). And 'thing' two: Tank rotational complexity. If a Tank (who's role is not 'DPS') can have X amount of rotational complexity, then I believe that whatever 'X' is, should be the upper limit for Healer rotational complexity.

Let's take WAR, because it's the 'most simple' according to many players. WAR has two 123 combos, one of which applies a buff (these are synonymous with Glare and Dia), and it has a 30s OGCD Upheaval (could argue Assize fills this slot for WHM). WHM also has POM allowing 3 uses of Glare 4, akin to IR allowing 3 uses of Fell Cleave. But we don't have anything that really compares to Onslaught, a gauge built by attacking, the followup after the 3 Fell Cleaves (Primal Wrath), Infuriate and its CD reduction effect/Inner Chaos upgrade effect, Primal Rend or the followup Primal Ruination. It could be argued that there's the Lily/Misery interaction, wherein we can put a Misery in raidbuffs for a small DPS gain, but even factoring that in, I think there's plenty of room for WHM to expand its complexity without A: making it more complex than even 'the simplest of the Tanks', and B: making it 'complex' just as a standalone design. As I mentioned before (and in the designs on page 1), the sum total of my changes to the DPS rotation on WHM is 'Dia is 12s Duration, new action Banish added with a 15s CD'. Just those two changes alone, takes us from like 33 Glares per 2min loop (a total of 50 GCDs due to POM's speedboost), to more like 20 out of 50, and that's the main goal I think, reducing how often we press 'the filler button' by adding more stuff to press that isn't 'the filler button', be that standalone GCD attacks like this Banish, or shortening DOT timers so we refresh them more often, etc.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I've been playing WHM main since 2.5 and I don't even mind WHM being in the back of the pack in terms of raw healing if something else makes up for it though in a way, the ease of the job does. All the other healing jobs are technically more complicated. The problem is that healing is a braindead role. If healing were engaging and WHM had the lowest skill cap combined with the overall lowest heals, that's a tradeoff I'd be willing to make, especially because I also play SGE and SCH.

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In this design, there's a couple of 'niches' that WHM would be able to fill (though it's up to each player individually whether they feel that said 'niche' is an interesting one to occupy). One is, of course, the ease of execution. With the reworked potencies, the extra instantcasts in the rotation (more using Dia, and Banish is an instantcast) it's way more mobile compared to the current WHM, allowing the player to more easily keep their damage going. The new gauge would also give it more ways to heal 'damage neutrally' before having to dip into Medica2 or Cure3, again helping with keeping damage output high. But there's some non-damage niches that it could slide into too. Firstly, being 'the comfy prog pick' thanks to the above ease of execution, but also Thin Air's reworked effect. By having the effect be 'next spell is instant AND costs 0 MP' (instead of just 'next spell costs 0 MP' as the current effect reads), this would allow WHM to throw out 2 Raises, instantly and for free, and then Swiftcast a third, allowing it a huge amount of Resurrection potential in progression. I don't mind that RDM has the ability to chain-res people, but I do think it is a little odd that the Caster is better at mass-resurrecting the team, than anyone in the Healer role.

The other niche, and this one is quite unintuitive at first read, is that I've listed Afflatus Bastion and Sanctuary as applying a Barrier 'equal to a heal of X potency', the same wording as is used on something like Divine Benison. As far as I understand it, because of a quirk of how the game calculates such an effect, any situation wherein you heal a target for less (eg your target has Infirmity from Twintania's Death Sentence, Zephirin's infamous spear from Thordan EX, etc), a barrier like Adloquium that says 'applies a barrier equal to X% of the amount healed' is reduced (because the base heal is reduced), but a barrier like Benison or these Afflatus barriers (which has no base heal) would be unaffected. In a situation where the party is taking 50% reduced healing because of a raid mechanic, the 250p barrier applied by Afflatus Sanctuary would actually be stronger than the 360p barrier applied by Eukrasian Prognosis II or Concitation (as they'd be reduced to an effective 180p). Additionally, the fact that Lily spending actions on WHM are damage neutral (via Misery's refund) would mean that, in certain situations after progression, the Barrier Healer could forgo using a wasteful GCD (Concitation/Deploy-Adlo/Eukrasian Prognosis II), and allow the WHM to throw up a damage neutral Afflatus barrier, allowing for more options during optimization. In progression, however, that 250p might not be enough, and even if you do survive, the Lily spent on that barrier might have been more effectively used on a Pure healing option like Afflatus Rapture after the damage has been dealt (as it heals for 400p compared to the 250p barrier). Such a 'Lily spender barrier action' would also mean that, in the times where we currently are forced to 'overheal' to prepare a Misery to use in raidbuffs (which feels wasteful), we'd be able to throw up a 30s barrier instead, and get 'some' value out of that Lily on the next raidwide (assuming there's raidwide damage within the next 30s).

I was thinking about changing Liturgy of the Bell's effect, such that we'd have 3 stacks instead of 5, removing the 'early detonation'/'it timed out' penalty (so it would always be 1200p total potency, instead of the 1000-2000p range it currently has), but also reducing its CD to 90s. That way, Macrocosmos has its 'niche' of 'it literally deleted a mechanic in P3S', and the 'niche' of Liturgy is 'it's up twice as often'. Ultimately, I decided against it for now, because the times where we do spend all 5 stacks, it's a great action

Finally stop demanding changes to the jobs. Weren't summoner, samurai, monk and even viper enough to see that SE is changing the jobs so that they are no longer fun at all? Summoner click button 1 - 2 - 3 Oh wait, just put something in between, what will you take? Titan? Garuda? Ifrit? Decisions upon decisions.... I'm overwhelmed. *yawns*

For starters to fix Healers, their attacks need an increase in potency. Their base damage output should be on the same level as tanks... Or alternatively they could nerf tanks to Healer levels of DPS... At this point of neglect towards the role, I would welcome the chaos caused by that.

Also, give them more of a supporting role in the group. Healing is usually only specifically needed when someone fails to dodge a mechanic, if it doesn't just straight up instakill them... Otherwise regen and Kardia/Eos is enough to more or less keep tanks alive, and most raidwides only need like 1 casted AoE heal to recover...
But for other kinds of support, there's only really Buffs for the raid and debuffs to enemies...

Healer issue is way deeper than what most people think.

it is in the root of job design philosophy.

What to manage as a tank? is the first question that will give us an idea of what other jobs can do.

giving healers extra DPS OGCD will not fix healer issue. it is how they can be valid with the current tank + dps kit.

why do DPS jobs have too many utility skills? all of the jobs have utility except 3 or 4 which is why healers have less value.

homonization is a big problem and devs can't understand it yet, 3 expansions in a row 6 years of the same kit shows how dellusional some people in the dev team, "go play ultimate" is not a professional answer, most the players are casuals and midcore is the second, people who play ultimate is the hardcore players, I would argue that they are less than 5% of the playerbase.

there is light in the tunnel

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

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Perhaps, but I do disagree with healers being an entry-level job.

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

While I would love for SE to re-build/ redesign classes every couple to a few years I highly doubt they will do that considering how adverse they are to change and how much people end up crying over even small changes.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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I understand that, and that's why I've tried to keep the ideas I've made here rather more 'tame' than what could be created (I've seen other people suggest massive overhauls that completely change the core design of each healer). But I do wonder if the perception that these additional systems (which I've tried to balance in such a way that they feel 'optional, for the sake of optimization only') would be too complex for something like an Ultimate, is because we're not used to having them, and suddenly being thrust into the deep end with their addition would feel overwhelming to some players? In a sense, the 'new player' would ironically have a much easier time with the additions, because they'd be learning each system one step at a time as they level, whereas we've got 100 levels of changes thrown at us as veteran players who have already reached the max level

These 'super complex classes' (again, debatable/subjective, I don't think any of these are any more complicated to execute than some of the Tanks) are intended to be for every level of skill, in every piece of content. You can choose to spam Cure2 and get through an EX roulette currently. You can press Succor 35 times in week 1 progression and still clear. These ideas wouldn't change that, or force the player to press their DPS actions more, merely add variety to which DPS actions are being pressed at what times. The example potencies are so close to the filler spell potency (eg Banish being only 40p stronger than Glare) specifically so that the player wouldn't be punished for 'doing the rotation wrong'. It's all intended to be 'tools to optimize around, but ultimately not necessary to clear content', and with it being 'optional', it simply means more potential fun to be had in lower-skill level content like EX roulette

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

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Further to the whole 'it might be a perception issue, that too much change is happening at once (from the POV of max level players) with these designs', I think what would help solve that would be if SE had a better update implementation schedule. Let's take the WHM, as an example. Rather than doing all of the changes at once, SE could break it up into 'Phases'. Phase 1 could be implemented in, say, 7.3, which would contain the changes to the Aero/Dia duration, and the addition of Banish as a new attack. In 7.4 or 7.5, Phase 2 could add the lower level versions of skills (Protect > PI, Divine Seal > Temperance, etc), and if SE wants to further soften the Pure/Barrier split, implementing Stoneskin/Graniteskin and the Afflatus upgrades could occur at this time. Finally, in 8.0 with the expansion release (due to the UI elements required for it), the Nature's Vigilance gauge, the spender, and the associated 'refund attacks' (Quake, Flood, Tornado) could be implemented.

Then, the same applies to the other healers. By adding things in smaller chunks, it allows the devs to A: break up the workload so as not to overburden their pipeline, B: get feedback on each portion's balance as they go (allowing them to adjust potencies/CDs for balance alongside the implementation of the next phase), and C: getting 'something' out sooner rather than saying 'wait 2 years and see what happens' would give a massive show to disillusioned vets of the role that 'we are listening, we are changing things, this is just a taste of what's to come', and for a lot of said vets, a change that shows that there's something coming down the pipeline would be enough to get them saying 'Hey, these Phase 1 changes for WHM (Dia duration change, Banish added) have helped the WHM gameplay out, and there's more coming in another patch? Well, this change was good, so I guess I'll stick around and see what they're cooking'

edit (ough):

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

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1: I'm not asking for 10 bars filled with spells to juggle. These designs add, I think the highest button count was '3 more than DT has' with SCH. Reducing button count on SCH in particular feels like a challenge, because all of its actions feel very 'it sucks, but used together with other tools, they become greater than the sum of their parts', but there's a couple of things that could go. Like Repose. And Rescue. And to an extent, if MP balancing were changed up to support it, Lucid Dreaming. For WHM, I'd only need to add 2 buttons if SE acquiesced to the plan to add a Barrier-based Lily spender. If Stoneskin and Graniteskin didn't make the cut, then it'd be +-0, since the 2 buttons I'd add (Blessing of the Elementals, Banish) would be counteracted by the 2 I'd remove (by having Cure upgrade to Cure2, and Medica to Medica2 (and then Medica3)).

2: I'm not sure anyone (in numbers big enough to matter) is saying that a high-ceiling class is 'not complex enough' when they 'master' it. EG, in EW, Black Mages at the top of their game didn't say 'oh BLM is too simple for my massive brain', they praised how versatile it was, how many options it had to adapt, etc. I also don't remember anyone complaining that MNK was 'too simple' when TK rotation accidentally appeared in Stormblood, but I do remember A: people who learned TK saying 'its cool that we have an optional, highly technical alternative that gives a very small (and ultimately unrequired) DPS gain' and B: people who didn't want to learn TK saying 'I don't want to learn this highly technical rotation' but not realizing that they could still parse orange with the standard rotation (source: I raided with a guy who did exactly this back in SB), and definitely not needing to learn 'the highly technical alternative rotation' to clear the fights, even in week 1 gear (and in MNK's case, this was back when everyone was going on and on about needing NIN DRG BRD MCH/SMN comp cos 'its meta')

3: SE slapped a 'bandaid' (class redesign) onto SMN because of how people felt about it in SHB, and now it gets criticism for its simplicity pretty often. I think it's entirely possible that the bandaid of a class redesign can have the opposite effect, and raise the perception of the job, if said design is 'good'. Whether the ones I've made here are 'good' is subjective, but I'd like to believe they would offer more gameplay for the healers than what is currently on offer. Additionally, one of the big issues with the current healers is that they have a lot of similarity in their kits, especially SCH/SGE having literal copies of certain actions (eg Ixochole/Indom are same potency, E-Prog/Concitation are the same potency of barrier, etc). So, if a player were to 'master' SCH in the current game, and swap to SGE for reclears, they're already most of the way to 'mastery' of SGE due to that similarity. But, with these redesigns, SCH has stancedancing to master, and SGE has Kardia interplay to master, and the two are much more divorced from one another in their 'optimal gameplay', even with still sharing some actions (eg Ixochole/Indom), because for example, SCH would be able to manipulate that Indom via their Strategies to make it heal for more, or to apply a barrier instead. Conversely, SGE would be able to apply the 'lossless' barrier that SCH can (via Defensive-Indom) to the party over the course of 4 GCD attacks (via a combination of Zoe and Pankardia), but that requires A: being able to hit the enemy, and B: 4 GCDs of setup time. And that means having to think about how you'd do the fight very differently between all four healers, extending the 'Time To Mastery' somewhat

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

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1. Perhaps you didn't specifically say it, but it's a tune that constantly plays when a class complexity topic arises or is discussed. As I said, there are some interesting ideas on paper, and it would be nice for SE to have a lot more creative liberty with classes rather than localize pre-existing ones from other games.

2. The funny thing about BLM is that while doing triple transpose was insanely difficult and you could pat yourself on the back for managing it, the return of it was hardly even worth it. More of a bragging right than anything else. There's a reason why certain classes are less preferred in certain fights. How can you ensure all classes are equally designed and offer the ability to play them regardless of difficulty or fight design?

3. I mean, perhaps it's a simple class but it still delivers what it was intended. SMN is not even all that popular in high-end content, and not because it's too simple but because there are better options that fulfill the designed role better, *cough* Picto *cough*.
As for SGE vs SCH, maybe their core idea is the same but they are really not all that alike beyond the fact they can shield.

For me, having reliable disposable heal/mits is important. Your design might work if the fights were adjusted to accommodate that change but the way some fights are designed now it will simply make certain classes a pain to deal with in the end content especially Ultimates where mechanics are very fast and you need to be precise. Nobody has time to shuffle a million cards and manage 10 bars.

"What does 'sprout' means here, though? Inexperienced? First timer? Or literally players with sprout icon?
I think it's fair to assume when you decided to step into these 'high end contents' you are required to have decent proficiency (not full mastery) of your chosen job, healers included."

I can mean one of those things or all of them. As for the rest, go in PF for a while and you will be surprised with the findings.