Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Simple. While depending heavily on raid design, it will lead to decisionmaking to prioritize the use of Shake it Off before all other raid mitigation to get more casts out of Shake it Off for damage over the course of a fight.

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That would heavily depend on whether an extra 280 potency counter before the fight ends is worth more than delaying and losing one cast but catching multiple raidwides under each buff. This would usually be planned around in an optimisation scenario, but if you're talking about people playing greedily, they're much more likely to use the ability where they get to take the most total hits rather than maximise casts, as that would lead to the bigger gain unless there are no multi-hits or multiple raidwides in succession.

As for your other point. We do already have a few defensives that people would rather use during downtime where boss is untargettable, like Deployment Tactics and Passage of Arms. I don't think it would be particularly a problem if the WAR decides to not Shake a downtime mechanic as there are always other options available.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

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Hot take but it was actually fun, and made some mitigation better in certain cases, and some an absolutely no go in others, at least more than it is today. Certainly more interesting than "monkey sees big AoE coming, monkey just pressesr the mit button".

Seeing mechanics of a fight for the first time and using such a mitigator just before white hole and seeing the whole group die to it? idk I find that hilarious and it makes for good memories.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Still wouldn't be enough.
Bw would still be the best short tank cd, Holmgang would still be the best invuln, it would still do the most dps in small group/solo content and Warrior would still be braindead easy to optimise.
I'd remove mitigation from BW and put holmgang's cooldown on 300 seconds as well. That way it would have an actual shortcoming. They don't want to deal lower damage, and demand to keep their ''job identity''? (comical amounts of heals) Then they should die to TB's without external mits.

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What I'd do to warriors healing/mitigation is to...
Split it This was how it was balanced in Shadowbringers, obviously flash was used as target healing CD (Which I'm not a fan of)
Have it shared on 25s (Use one the other goes on cooldown too) have one CD be at 15%(8s) + 10%(4s), let this be able to target allies, The Other CD that shares it would be heal on hit(s) lasting for 8s, 400 potency, This Shouldn't be able to target players it should be a selfish self healing tool as warrior shouldn't be able to "heal allies". This should also only heal 400 no matter the amount of enemies, similar to how paladins holy circle doesn't have absurd healing in AOE pulls. Healers should actually have to heal, wall to wall should feel risky.

This would make warrior have strong options but have to Choose how to deal with it, the self healing will likely be better for auto(s) and attacks that are survivable while ur mitigation would be better at harsh busters.

Shake it off should be changed into a AOE mitigation ability, Give AOE Barriers to dark knight, as y'know that makes sense for the other"Magic tank". it's really weird that the berserker is the AOE shield tank with party healing aspects, the identity literally makes zero sense as it stands.

Personally I'm fine with warrior having a short Invul, but Ideally we would make Invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

What I'd do to warriors healing/mitigation is to
Split it This was how it was balanced in shadowbringers, obviously flash was used as target healing CD (Which I'm not a fan of)
Have it shared on 25s (Use one the other goes on coolddown too) have one CD be at 15%(8s) + 10%(4s), let this be able to target allies, The Other CD that shares it would be heal on hit(s) lasting for 8s, 400 potency, This Shouldn't be able to target players it should be a selfish self healing tool as warrior shouldn't be able to "heal allies". This should also only heal 400 no matter the amount of enemies, similar to how paladins holy circle doesn't have absurd healing in aoe pulls. Healers should actually have to heal, wall to wall should feel risky.

This would make warrior have strong options but have to Choose how to deal with it, the self healing will likely be better for auto(s) and attacks that are survivable while ur mitigation would be better at harsh busters.

Shake it off should be changed into a AOE mitigation ability, Give AOE Barriers to dark knight, as y'know that makes sense for the other"Magic tank". it's really weird that the beserker is the AOE shield tank with party healing aspects, the identity literally makes zero sense as it stands.

Personally I'm fine with warrior having a short Invul, but Ideally we would make invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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I'm fine with them having niche differences and different timers, the main issue I have with it is that warrior is already very good at everything and has the 2nd highest dps, If warrior had actual downsides or was a lot more difficult then at least it would have a reason.

The issue with Warrior is that its jack of all trades master of all, because it quite literally does everything with zero down sides, upsides only (being 2nd highest in DPS i count as a upside as u bring two different tanks so its Optimal)

I'm totally fine with higher cooldown invuls, for example Paladin, it should be great at utility and support, but giving it a longer invul on average and not the outright highest DPS (Imo gnb/drk should be currently) makes sense to me, more or less I'd like to reduce that gap between invuls because currently it's too big, I'd do that by making wars longer while shorting PLD's

Holmgang honestly should have been nerfed a long time ago, and completely separate from this conversation really.

Solo Tanking P1 and P2 on content was almost optimal due to how WAR could alternate mits and holmgang on their busters.
Abyssos felt specifically designed against that sort of thing and it was somewhat miserable.

A sane developer would have just made it so Holmgang wasn't always up 3+ times a fight, and lined up perfectly with TB mechanics. Instead they designed the entire tier around the existence of holmgang exclusively, and even then you could still holmgang cheese p8sp2

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Holmgang honestly should have been nerfed a long time ago, and completely separate from this conversation really.

Solo Tanking P1 and P2 on content was almost optimal due to how WAR could alternate mits and holmgang on their busters.
Abyssos felt specifically designed against that sort of thing and it was somewhat miserable.

A sane developer would have just made it so Holmgang wasn't always up 3+ times a fight, and lined up perfectly with TB mechanics. Instead they designed the entire tier around the existence of holmgang exclusively, and even then you could still holmgang cheese p8sp2

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But instead of making the differences actually matter, they gave Shake it off and Equilibrium the heal over time effects to make sure War doesn't have a harder time dealing with mechanics intended to be uncheesable.
Not only that, they then also buffed it's dps. And so now, Warrior is just a literal direct upgrade over Drk and PLD.
They didn't give Dark knight shields on Dark mind or Dark missionary to deal with Harrowing hell though, NAHHHH Warrior NEEDS to be a direct upgrade in every fucking regard.
Downsides and tradeoffs are not something Warrior players can cope with, so we must simply pass them on to Drk players to make War players feel better about their ''job identity'' of being better.
Notice how if you suggest they fix jank in Drk's toolkit, all the War players come out of the woodwork to explain why an unrewarding, mildly annoying mechanic unique to Dark knight is necessary for the jobs to be different.

Remember when Holm was still 6s long and required a target, as well as locking the WAR in place for the duration? How many times have they buffed this thing?

They really should keep a changelog on the FFXIV job page with the patches and dates.

In 5.0, the target requirement was removed and the recast was increased from 180 seconds to 240 seconds.
In 5.1, the duration was increased to 8 seconds.
In 6.0, the duration was increased to 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ideally we would make Invuls more like 30s apart instead of 1min apart from each.

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I'd go a step further and suggest that there should be a maximum of 1 minute difference between the shortest and longest recasts. I wonder if it would be a better idea to turn invulns into a shared role cooldown, such that activating an invuln activates the cooldown timer on both tanks. That way you'd have access to less uses per fight and would have to use some actual cooldown management for once.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Remember when Holm was still 6s long and required a target, as well as locking the WAR in place for the duration? How many times have they buffed this thing?

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When it didn't even need any in the first place.
Sure 6 seconds couldn't cover every mechanic and the root made it impossible to invuln certain mechanics (actually a blessing in O11S because phys ranged pugs couldn't do the most basic things) but it also allowed Holmgang to be used as knockback immunity and with it's low cooldown it was probably still back up the next time you needed it for a buster.

The only thing Holmgang needed was a fix to the effect dropping off early if your target died.