After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

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Folks tasted the forbidden fruit now, and refuses to part ways from that.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

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Honestly at this point, I'd very much prefer them to revert back to ShB Nascent Flash: HP recovery based on damage dealt. Yes, Chaotic Cyclone and maybe Primal Rend will still be a Benediction on moderate sized pulls. Yes, Orogeny & Onslaught (lol) will heal you. But regular Overpower+Mythril Tempest heals would be a trickle compared to today's iteration. CDH Decimate would probably still heal decently but not exactly an absurd amount, and you probably will have to pair BW with other cooldowns too. As of today, BW can be used on its own in a w2w pull without caring what GCD you're pressing. Adding anything on top of that while its still active would just be a waste.

Just bring back tank stances and make it possible for WAR to only heal off of bloodwhetting in tank stance, Maybe in DPS stance, it can be a buff or something.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

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What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

Here's a radical idea. I think they should bring back the Physical and Magic split for tanks.

Make PLD and WAR the Physical damage tanks, GNB and DRK the Magic damage tanks.
PLD and GNB can be the mitigation based tanks, WAR and DRK can be self heal based tanks.

This would also help give all 4 of the tanks a little bit of their own identity.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Here's a radical idea. I think they should bring back the Physical and Magic split for tanks.

Make PLD and WAR the Physical damage tanks, GNB and DRK the Magic damage tanks.
PLD and GNB can be the mitigation based tanks, WAR and DRK can be self heal based tanks.

This would also help give all 4 of the tanks a little bit of their own identity.

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Ok so GNB in current game design would be full-time meta though. Mitigation is king unless the sustain is beyond ridiculous and most relevant damage is magical most of the time so at least 70% of the time you will run GNB-DRK.

There is a reason why we don't go heavy on those splits, as was perfectly evident on PLD vs DRK in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by rawker

What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

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On the matter of Cover - as long as the gauge cost persists, it needs healing and/or mitigation equivalent to Holy Sheltron at minimum, because otherwise you are better off just using Intervention or Provoke + Holy Sheltron. As long as it is linked to Oath gauge it will be fighting in usage against Holy Sheltron and Intervention. As those cooldowns are potent, either parity needs to be made or the gauge cost needs to be removed.

Option 1: 120s CD + 50 gauge cost, an excogitation like heal as you suggest and at least 20% damage reduction OR alternatively +100% Block Rate on redirected damage only (Bulwark effect).
Option 2: 120s CD, gauge cost removed, heal as you suggested, no further damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

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My thoughts, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Folks tasted the forbidden fruit now, and refuses to part ways from that.

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My thoughts, exactly.

Seeing how this discussion continues to lean towards allowing tanks to have the healing it does, just adjusted is only rearranging chairs and tables on the Titanic. Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

DRK is really the only tank that doesn't have the kind of sustain that encroaches on healers. Earlier I stated that Xeno's only suggestion to address this issue is to give healers more to do. I actually I agree with that. They should have more to heal, and this doesn't apply to only the game's more difficult content. Let healers heal FFS. Is that really such a huge thing to ask for? I don't think any healer signs up for the kind of gameplay and treatment they get. Push them. Challenge them. Allow them to play the effin game.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

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Nascent Flash existing as a cooldown with moderate healing or at least healing scaling with damage dealt and simply acting as a targetted mitigation tool in a similar vein to Intervention. That's the purpose.

The healing amount should not be a ridiculous amount like up to 2x 1600 heal potency (self + target) tho. But Nascent Flash should 100% exist, just not with the amount it heals.

Remove it entirely and you remove WAR's relevance of ever being an offtank and you just shoehorn them harder into MT only. Terrible idea if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Nascent Flash existing as a cooldown with moderate healing or at least healing scaling with damage dealt and simply acting as a targetted mitigation tool in a similar vein to Intervention. That's the purpose.

The healing amount should not be a ridiculous amount like up to 2x 1600 heal potency (self + target) tho. But Nascent Flash should 100% exist, just not with the amount it heals.

Remove it entirely and you remove WAR's relevance of ever being an offtank and you just shoehorn them harder into MT only. Terrible idea if you ask me.

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So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

If there will be consistent add phases or more mechanics that the OT will have to take care off because the boss cleaves a lot, then the OT will have something more to do than just being a blue DPS for the most part.