JP Players healer feedback is...

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Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi

What I've gathered from the JP forums is that they have this ideal way to see the jobs.

Healers only job is to heal. No damage what so ever, only the bare minimum. (I kinda agree. But I feel like there is a need for healer rework... at least for sage. [It's failure of a DPS healer])

Tanks need selfsustain more than anything. Actually there isn't enogh! (I know tanks need those skills but absolutely no nerfing of them of any kind?)

DPS is just DPS. All about damage.

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The issue with that ideal is it is absolutely not what the fight Design in FFXIV is built for.

Tanks at least still have tankbusters and tank swaps in savage to deal with, on top of getting dps rotations of varying complexity and apm.

DPS (well outside Summoner) get Interesting rotations with more or less room to optimize. And dps checks to Beat.

But healers are designed for dealing with fights we never See.

For one there's no mechanic I can recall in content I play (which tbf does not include ultimates or criterion) that needed non-tank spot healing.

There's no random dps chunking mechs you need to spot heal asap bc that dps getting hit by it again would kill them. It's always predictable and usualy party wide dmg.

Even on Tanks the healing needed is very predictable. Unless it's a tankbuster, or you cheese some mechs with the 'drop to 1' invulns, Tanks can wait for healing until you'd need to hit an AoE heal anyways for a raid wide.

There's also very few mechanics that actually need a lot of Healing through put to deal with. HH is the only one that jumps to mind this Tier, with styx as a runner up at least when the parties gear is meh.

But looking at the toolkits healers have rn you'd think they'd need to deal with raidwides needing heavy mitigation every 30s or so. Or ones needing a single healers mitigation every 15s. Tankbusters on both tanks about every minute or so. Etc.


And even then, there's few mechanics in game that would allow Healers to show their stuff beyond a binary 'fail to heal and wipe' and 'heal enough to pass'.

These days there's basicly no tankbusters in ffxiv where the party has a choice of when to do them. Imagine if the vulns given by tankbusters were less 'next hit instakills guranteed' and instead just ramped up all dmg taken by the Tank. So that skilled healers could drag that tankswap out longer than average healers. Potentially even so far that you could skip the Tank swap with two good enough healers and thus freeing up the second tank slot for a dps to speed up Runs. Or maybe even give the Off-tank a dmg buff equal to the vuln stacks the Tank has to just speed up the boss even with a standard comp the longer healers can keep the mt alive.

Show them this and let me see their responses:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

https://i.imgur.com/tVNtVaC.png

https://i.imgur.com/V6vK1rj.png

https://i.imgur.com/EyWXbQx.png

https://i.imgur.com/uR1NHur.png

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The current design of the game doesn't really require healers as much as support that have healing skills. It's a completely different thing from having firehose healing and it sounds like the JP crowd are expecting traditional trinity firehose healing.

The two true recovery skills that have to exist...

1. A single target heal
2. An AOE heal

ALL of the support Skills that exist in FFXIV under healers...

1. Health Regeneration
2. Temporary HP
3. Shields (Which are really temporary HP without a healing component)
4. Damage Reduction
5. Damage Increase

So the issue is that they crammed all this extra junk in for exactly two healing skills because they changed how healing works once you get past a specific level, and then threw up a bunch of support skills and divided who gets what between the shield and the pure healers. Ranged DPS were supposed to handle the majority of the support skills but they got reduced to a dps rotation that buffs people, rather than having dedicated buff skills. And the reason this happened is because healer DPS is not supposed to matter, but then what do healers DO? Well, I guess they babysit and buff / shield people. So yay your support job tasks are now all on the healers shoulders. I guess I should say shield healers shoulders since they get the dps buff, because who the heck needs a mit when the tanks already do it with the caster DPS and melee DPS having dedicated mit buttons?

And FYI I am not attacking the development team of SE over the way that they have things setup right now. This sounds like a boatload of work to even begin to fix because the support skills that are on healer would have to be moved BACK to the ranged dps before they could make room to allow for more dps skills. If they add another attack button to the healers it gives the impression of fixing the problem, but the reality is it would make healer harder to play because now the healer has to balance a bloated healing kit with also managing more on damage on an MMO hot bar. Remember, EVERYTHING in this game is built on using multiple buttons to combo and make sure the player finds the game engaging, and that includes the healing. We got to combo 3 buttons just to free cast a rez, or combo 3 buttons to get a super shield up on a scholar.

I don't know, I just do not like either side of the arguments on healer. I don't like the idea of not having any way to do damage besides one button, but I also do not like the idea that now a healer would be expected to maintain a rotation when they got so much busywork to do just to get an effect off. The real crux of the problem is that because they engineered the healing to be a combo system they can't make the dps rotation too intense, even if the healer combos are only used sparingly across a fight.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

And FYI I am not attacking the development team of SE over the way that they have things setup right now. This sounds like a boatload of work to even begin to fix because the support skills that are on healer would have to be moved BACK to the ranged dps before they could make room to allow for more dps skills. If they add another attack button to the healers it gives the impression of fixing the problem, but the reality is it would make healer harder to play because now the healer has to balance a bloated healing kit with also managing more on damage on an MMO hot bar. Remember, EVERYTHING in this game is built on using multiple buttons to combo and make sure the player finds the game engaging, and that includes the healing. We got to combo 3 buttons just to free cast a rez, or combo 3 buttons to get a super shield up on a scholar.

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Sorry for being ignorant, but what support skills are on the healer are you referring to that has be moved back to the ranged dps before they can make room for dps skills?
You mean Chain Strategem? You mean Expedient (?) or Fey Illumination?
Lucid Dreaming (Shroud of Saints from WHM)?
The 2 flavors of Balance from AST?
Or are you talking about rescue and repose?

Are you referring to WHM's Divine Seal turning into Temperance? Healer's largesse being removed? Or the Single Target Nature's Minne from BRD becoming multi-target and basically a second MNK mantra?
I cannot tell what support skills you're talking about that originally belonged to ranged DPS. It feels like every role got more support utility instead (melee dps & caster dps Addle/Feint got better for instance). If anything, ranged DPS lost things like TP&MP regeneration (Tactician/Refresh), but most jobs don't use either resource anymore. They still have damage mitigation. DNC still has healing and a regen/shield skill baked into its toolkit. MCH still has dismantle (mitigation). BRD's DPS utility got nerfed, but that's because it was spread to every job with a dps buff, not healers. They still have Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, and Radiant Finale as their support utility.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Sorry for being ignorant, but what support skills are on the healer are you referring to that has be moved back to the ranged dps before they can make room for dps skills?
You mean Chain Strategem? You mean Expedient (?) or Fey Illumination?
Lucid Dreaming (Shroud of Saints from WHM)?
The 2 flavors of Balance from AST?
Or are you talking about rescue and repose?

Are you referring to WHM's Divine Seal turning into Temperance? Healer's largesse being removed? Or the Single Target Nature's Minne from BRD becoming multi-target and basically a second MNK mantra?
I cannot tell what support skills you're talking about that originally belonged to ranged DPS. It feels like every role got more support utility instead (melee dps & caster dps Addle/Feint got better for instance). If anything, ranged DPS lost things like TP&MP regeneration (Tactician/Refresh), but most jobs don't use either resource anymore. They still have damage mitigation. DNC still has healing and a regen/shield skill baked into its toolkit. MCH still has dismantle (mitigation). BRD's DPS utility got nerfed, but that's because it was spread to every job with a dps buff, not healers. They still have Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, and Radiant Finale as their support utility.

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This is thinking way too into the weeds with it. Think of a group of players like a band with most of the skills all being designed as personal buffs that people end up using when they are running solo. The idea that SE has is to have all the jobs come together and line up the buffs when they play together naturally, so the band is greater than the sum of its parts. Now think for a moment about healer and ask yourself what does it do as part of a rotation that syncs with the group and also syncs with itself? Chain stratagem?

The grand plan that they have is that the healers need to time heals based on raid mechanics and then that should sync with what they are doing in dps and raid buffs, but they have absolutely no way to do that because healers have to account for people who are bad at playing the guitar or the drums. Some guy goes and dies when the healer is supposed to be just using a group regen and saving his cooldowns for the next big attack, or your in a 24 man and it is chaos every couple of minutes because people forget how to do Hashmal for the 100th time.

Ultimates don't need healers because the players are so coordinated they do not even need anyone there, because no one is getting hit. Why do healers need to exist in savage fights?

Because the bosses are doing massive unavoidable AOEs that no one can heal through with their individual skills. The design just doesn't make any sense at all. If everyone can survive a fight with just the minimal self heals available to them and maybe a little support, then we have guild wars 2. If bosses out DPS the self healing that people can use, then we have firehose healing. But what they are doing is trying to justify healers existing by taking a huge chunk out of everyone at once, so healers are spending most of the time dpsing but then have to have extremely big healing skills to deal with these perfectly timed mega hits, disregarding the fact that others might get hit by smaller things or forget to put a mit up. It's like being stuck in this tug of war between two ways of doing things.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that people who are generally discussing healer and want more engaging damage rotations are pushing towards a system where everyone is basically a damage dealer, and the only unique thing they have is some specific set of actions that dictate what their role is. People who are trying to say they don't want the system any different than now are wanting healers to be different from the other two roles in their entirety.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Guess what I'm trying to say is that people who are generally discussing healer and want more engaging damage rotations are pushing towards a system where everyone is basically a damage dealer, and the only unique thing they have is some specific set of actions that dictate what their role is. People who are trying to say they don't want the system any different than now are wanting healers to be different from the other two roles in their entirety.

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How are you ever going to achieve that practically, though, especially with 4 expansions worth of healing-lax content to rework? It just seems like a completely insane amount of core design that should be completely overhauled for healers to have something else besides DPS to do for 90% of the time.

The only thing I can think of is crank up boss auto-attack damage up to eleven, but how much better is constant babysitting of the MT really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Guess what I'm trying to say is that people who are generally discussing healer and want more engaging damage rotations are pushing towards a system where everyone is basically a damage dealer, and the only unique thing they have is some specific set of actions that dictate what their role is. People who are trying to say they don't want the system any different than now are wanting healers to be different from the other two roles in their entirety.

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But in the current system healers aren’t different than the other roles, we are still damage dealers but our damage rotation is just ungodly boring

Bole makes a great point, in the early days the DPS rotation was more complex but ironically you were less punished for GCD healing because everyone accepted it was a necessity to survive because of the limited amount of oGCD’s and the fact they generally only did one thing (who decided a regen on sacred soil was a good idea)

Square has pushed healers into the “forced damage dealers” mindset because they have made it possible to heal without GCD’s which is why you get punished if you heal with GCD’s

So one camp is stuck wanting to optimise something because oGCD’s are boring and gets 111111111111, the other camp wants to heal but can’t because the oGCD’s are so strong you get flamed for being a medica 2 mage. Who is this current system designed for

I remember looking over there shortly after I made some posts a long time ago.

What I noticed was: The healer forum was largely empty. One new post every few weeks. Looking at it again, not much has changed.

Last posts on certain topics: 3 posts in January, 6 posts over a 4 month period

So no, I don't take what they say seriously at all.

Reoh
01-25-2024,

chamfer
01-19-2024,

Pyonko
01-06-2024,

chamfer
12-14-2023,

Miso
10-19-2023,

3 posts in January, 4 posts over a 4 month period

So no, I don't take what they say seriously at all.

The thing about the JP forums is that if a thread already exists on a topic, they just reply to that thread vs making a new thread to garner attention.
Granted, the JP forum's mods would lock thread's with repeated topics and direct people to the older thread (no clue if they still do this or not).
That's why the JP forums have large unofficial threads for each healer and the healer role as a whole.
Supposedly the devs are more likely to look at threads and replies with more likes then seeing the same sentiment repeated in multiple threads and replies.
wow~ ( ⊙o⊙)