What is Midcore? Why does it matter?

It's rather unfortunate that this thread was seemingly started in good faith and has had some good discussion yet has consistent attempts of derailment by the OP. Quite bizarre.


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Originally Posted by R041

You can't honestly see these responses to my post as good faith? They're mostly condescending -

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I do in fact think they were engaging with you in good faith. I can see how you interpret them as condescending, but I disagree greatly with that interpretation. The meme responses however....

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Anyway, anyway.. I might just be a Casual. Reading all of these posts, I don't have a lot of faith in anyone knowing what Midcore is, memes or not. Especially myself. These are just things I always assumed were 'Mid', with spice.

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It's all a matter of perspective really. Ask someone who does Ultimates what mid is and they will probably say Extreme. Ask someone who never does anything beyond normal raids what Hard is and they will tell you Extremes. I actually really like the food level analogy we got a few pages back. I'll probably start using that myself especially because it defines an experience as opposed to a person, which is more likely to avoid the interpretation as being an attack. Although I full expect to hear people referring to harder content in terms of hot/spicy levels :D

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Originally Posted by Xirean

It's rather unfortunate that this thread was seemingly started in good faith and has had some good discussion yet has consistent attempts of derailment by the OP. Quite bizarre.

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there is no good faith on these forums.

just remember folks all posts are bait.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Midcore is ex and early savage

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Midcore is Bozja and Eureka. Midcore is going into a Critical Engagement and encountering interesting mechanics that don't need a guide or for you to set aside 30 mins to an hour with a group to get a clear, but that don't put you to sleep either like MSQ Dungeons. Midcore is Baldesion Arsenal, CLL, DR and Dalriada, where content is challenging and requires coordination, but doesn't require the same level of commitment as EX or SVG.

EX is the entry level of Hardcore. From there you can Unreal, SVG and Ultimate. I know you Raiders think EX is Midcore, but just because you find it easy, doesn't mean it's the kind of content the actual midcore audience wants. A lot of us were in Eureka and then Bozja throughout SB and ShB, and you'll be surprised to learn that many of us don't care about Savage or even EX sometimes, just the same you'll NEVER get an MSQ Player to do Eureka or Bozja. That's Midcore.

Criterion was supposed to be midcore, instead you go from dead easy Variant to "now you need a group and do prog Criterion" so we ended up with two modes of hardcore content on top of the casual version. There's no middle ground and that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Midcore is Bozja and Eureka. Midcore is going into a Critical Engagement and encountering interesting mechanics that don't need a guide or for you to set aside 30 mins to an hour with a group to get a clear, but that don't put you to sleep either like MSQ Dungeons. Midcore is Baldesion Arsenal, CLL, DR and Dalriada, where content is challenging and requires coordination, but doesn't require the same level of commitment as EX or SVG.

EX is the entry level of Hardcore. From there you can Unreal, SVG and Ultimate. I know you Raiders think EX is Midcore, but just because you find it easy, doesn't mean it's the kind of content the actual midcore audience wants. A lot of us were in Eureka and then Bozja throughout SB and ShB, and you'll be surprised to learn that many of us don't care about Savage or even EX sometimes, just the same you'll NEVER get an MSQ Player to do Eureka or Bozja. That's Midcore.

Criterion was supposed to be midcore, instead you go from dead easy Variant to "now you need a group and do prog Criterion" so we ended up with two variants of hardcore content on top of the casual version. There's no middle ground and that's the problem.

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Hard agree. I felt like Eureka and Bozja were good stepping stones to going into harder content. Ex is mixed but definitely is starter Hardcore. I don't believe Endsinger, Barbi and Rubi EX are in any way midcore content. Sure, easier now with the ever present ilvl creep, but not when it was current.
Criterion should have been 1-4, like Variant but just more challenging, without the mountainous gulf that it is now. You set foot in Criteria, after doing Variant, and it's just way too much.

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Originally Posted by R041

Idk if that's the gotcha you think it is, because there's no detective work needed. It would've been easier for you to just tell me I'm a PoS for being petty, but instead you chose to come up with a conspiracy theory.]

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While I would agree that poster was being very "holier than thou" with their response, they do have an actual point behind their snarkiness.

You cited Bozja/Eureka as closest to Midcore, but for someone like me, they sit wholly in the casual range without "close to" being even a consideration. Every CE is brain dead easy to figure out, Dal/Castrum are both slow motion easy fights, literally the only piece of contents in either of them that i would define as 'midcore' would be Duels, BA & DRS (which are all plagued with accessibility and ease of access issues).

Which is the issue here in that what would constitute as midcore or "above casual play level skill" is going to be extremely perception-skewed on an individual basis. Nothing short of an extreme level fight is going to remotely stimulate me, so any content released to fit my 'midcore' would have to be at that difficulty minimum, but that would be way above other people's definitions and thoughts on it.

What defines "Midcore" is arguably one of the biggest issues about implementing midcore content. Since by the very vast majority of the playerbase's skill level, Alliance raids like orbonne would theoretically be "midcore", despite being ultra easy for anyone with even the slightest skill levels. Here's a thought experiment: Square has endless terrabytes worth of statistics on their playerbase, they know the skill level and what would content design would fall under various tiers of difficulty contrasted to the overall skill level of the playerbase as a whole. Perhaps in their mind, they have in fact, been implementing "midcore" content this entire time, based on the statistics of the very low overall skill of the playerbase, since that's where the data says "midcore" would land with the average skill expression of the playerbase when taken as a whole.

One needs to only spam Euphrosyne for days on end, an extremely easy alliance raid and watch the average cascade of dead bodies/vulns from failing braindead easy mechanics every run to realize just how low the skill expression of "casual" actually is, and that the midpoint between it and hardcore still sits very cleanly into "very easy" territory.

Whether midcore or not though, the game definitely could use more content like Duels, BA & DRS, but not gated behind accessibility issues. Criterion definitely had the potential to fill this role for 4 man parties, but alas.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Hard agree. I felt like Eureka and Bozja were good stepping stones to going into harder content. Ex is mixed but definitely is starter Hardcore. I don't believe Endsinger, Barbi and Rubi EX are in any way midcore content. Sure, easier now with the ever present ilvl creep, but not when it was current.
Criterion should have been 1-4, like Variant but just more challenging, without the mountainous gulf that it is now. You set foot in Criteria, after doing Variant, and it's just way too much.

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I'm not holding my breath for adjustments in Aloalo Isle, because all 3 EW V&C are probably 'bundled-together' as a project, but I genuinely hope they will use those as workshop to make V&C more approachable in Dawntrail, both in this intermediate difficulty truly contemplating midcore players, but also in the reward structure.

To me, a best case scenario is 3 V&Cs implemented at the x.x1 odd patches and having their own gear collection. Odd patches basically just have EX and maybe an Ultimate for harder content, and the latter is defnitely not everyone's cup of tea, so it would be nice to have something to sink our teeth in during those.

I think too many people when trying to define midcore use their personal yard stick rather than stepping back, looking at the content, the playerbase and how much people interact with different areas and decide based on that

For example if you are someone who needs savage to feel alive so something like the dark inside extreme puts you to sleep then while that is a fair opinion you have to acknowledge that you sit at the very upper end of the playerbase, same as if you get heart palpitations on “half room cleaves the alliance raid” you are towards the lower end of the playerbase

If we take the usual thrown around figure or somewhere in the realm of 20-40% depending on server attempt savage and rank generally thrown around content on this thread

Dungeons->alliance raids->normal raids->CE’s/DRN/Dal/CLL->BA->/=extreme->DRS->savage=criterion->criterion savage=UWU/UCOB->ultimates

Then based on the numbers of players being tipped to the lower end (70% of people have finished the MSQ, 80% of those have access to Zadnor etc) I think the most objective way we could define midcore would be anything you put between normal raids and DRS exclusive, so the majority of Bozja (think you may find CE’s ridiculously easy but they have a much higher fatality rate than your average alliance raid, I’ve wiped to Diablo armament more than once), BA (BA’s only real difficulty is it’s entry and the illusion of the harsh punishment for death) and most of the extremes roughly in that order

So you have the “can put totally randomly but you need your brain on”, “can be done relatively easily if you have an effective caller, otherwise would be quite messy” and “you at least need to know what mitigation and clock spots are”

Anything easier than your average CE’s is basically a normal raid/hard trial (or a top end alliance raid boss like TGC) anything harder than your average extreme (or very specific savage floors like O1 and P1) is definitively hardcore because you have to legit prog that stuff

The distinctions ARE important, and absolutely matter - think of WoW's Warlords of Draenor (WoD) expansion. It's near universally disliked for a number of reasons, but a big one is that the only things to do in it were really PvPing and raiding. There is that "The one thing it DID do well was..." argument, which is the raids. But that was it. Catering to one part of the community to, effectively, the disregard and cost of the entire rest caused a massive collapse in player numbers that was, at that time, unheard of for WoW.

So it very much does matter where the game has dearths of content for swaths of the playerbase.

The issue is defining what that is. Is someone who maxed out Ishgard Restoration and has the pterodactyl mount NOT hardcore? Their content didn't require a group but it required a massive time investment and probably outside of game research on efficient gathering and crafting and farming methods, gearing/food buffs, and probably macro generation. It's one of the most rare achievements in the game, though it doesn't require voice chat or scheduled game time. Hardcore fishers are a legend unto themselves.

Some people say Extremes and Savages are "midcore" while others laugh at the very idea of anything with a body check and enrage not being considered hardcore.

But I think people get lost in the weeds on that a bit. While trying to get more universal definitions for the terms isn't a bad idea, it misses the forest for the trees. The real question, and the matter to be concerned with, I think we can all see:

If the game has large swaths of the playerbase it's either not providing content to, or content that is quickly consumed and doesn't have longevity, this is a problem, especially if that's a large portion of the playerbase.

Anyone remember Heavenward MSQ big dragon trial? Was that considered midcore? Because pugs were getting destroyed left/right that it had to be nerf and eventually completely changed lol.

On topic, everyone has their OWN definition of what midcore should be base on their skill levels and type of content they currently engage in that is impossible to released a content label as midcore. Everyone will judge it base on their skill level and classified as such. High end ultimate groups would label extreme as casual most likely

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Anyone remember Heavenward MSQ big dragon trial? Was that considered midcore? Because pugs were getting destroyed left/right that it had to be nerf and eventually completely changed lol.

On topic, everyone has their OWN definition of what midcore should be base on their skill levels and type of content they currently engage in that is impossible to released a content label as midcore. Everyone will judge it base on their skill level and classified as such. High end ultimate groups would label extreme as casual most likely

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Steps of faith was different, the fight was terribly designed and you hit its fail condition like 5 minutes before the enrage but if you failed it you couldn’t wall yourself

Basically in the original version you had to hit the dragon with both of the dragon killers. This happened at about 4 minutes into the fight, if you missed either of them (because the execution of said mechanics was wonky and unintuitive you basically just had to stand there and wait for him to walk all the way to end of the arena and destroy the last barrier which would cause a wipe

Chrysalis is a better example of an older trial being a legit challenge for people when it was on content because it was well designed and had some interesting mechanics, steps of faith was always terribly designed