I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

In fact, the homogenization is so bad that the first healer job this game has gotten in 6 years was a functionally worse SCH clone that has the exact same gameplay loop as the other 3 healers. It's ridiculous.

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Hey you take that back, warrior's nothing like scholar!

Joking aside, warrior seems to fit how they described sage better than sage does while having a significantly more interesting rotation. If they swapped a couple of tank cds for different nascent spread options and slapped a cleanse and raise onto it, it could be a really good foundation for a semi-unique healer.

Aero 2 used to be 18s duration, right? And then on top of Aero 3 which had a different duration, you were regularly keeping them up in addition to Stone 3, making different buttons and DPS contribution much more varied than even from SCH and AST. Cleric Stance on top of that made it even more fun, IMO, though I know a lot of people didn't like it. SCH had what, 3 dots plus Shadow Flare and Energy Drains? AST was the most "standard," but needed to be because they were using an actual fun card system that had soul which gave them varied buttons.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What do you mean? Are you telling me that that it actually matters what buttons you press, and that there is an ounce of thought that's supposed to go into them? I thought it was like playing the piano where you just press keys because no matter what song you're trying to play, you just press keys because keys are keys. Are you telling me there's a difference between the scales and Beethoven's ‘Moonlight’ Sonata?

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Odds bodkins. Of course not. Syntax is a relic best left in the 20th century. Words have no difference between them; they're all pretty much the same. Stapler. Fontina jug napkin squeeze. Pin screech leprosy dust. Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock, and Hulk Hogan.

Sophistry.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Odds bodkins. Of course not. Syntax is a relic best left in the 20th century. Words have no difference between them; they're all pretty much the same. Stapler. Fontina jug napkin squeeze. Pin screech leprosy dust. Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock, and Hulk Hogan.

Sophistry.

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You know, thinking about it again, my mind went down the rabbit hole of... If all FFXIV's gameplay just amounts to 'pressing buttons' and different actions don't matter because, at the end of the day, all you're doing is pressing more buttons, then why even have buttons at all? Why not just have 1 button on every job that does the same thing, and you set it to every spot on your hotbar, so you can press whatever you want in whatever order. It's all the same, right. It's just pressing buttons after all. But that got me thinking... Because you know what? There is a game that actually did this! The critically acclaimed storytelling masterpiece that was Balan Wonderworld. A beacon of immaculate game design at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Why is healer the role people openly desire rejecting diversity in? Forget changing all 4 healers to be unique and different, we do not even have one healer that is unique and different on a meaningful level to where people can say "Oh you don't like Glare spam? Go play that."

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https://i.gyazo.com/15f14e9a293b8527...86881c7936.png

The worst part is, it's actually possible I spent more time on this zero-effort crap, than SE is going to spend on healers for 7.0 /s

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You know, thinking about it again, my mind went down the rabbit hole of... If all FFXIV's gameplay just amounts to 'pressing buttons' and different actions don't matter because, at the end of the day, all you're doing is pressing more buttons, then why even have buttons at all? Why not just have 1 button on every job that does the same thing, and you set it to every spot on your hotbar, so you can press whatever you want in whatever order. It's all the same, right. It's just pressing buttons after all. But that got me thinking... Because you know what? There is a game that actually did this! The critically acclaimed storytelling masterpiece that was Balan Wonderworld. A beacon of immaculate game design at its finest.

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I felt my soul leave my body reading the words 'Balan Wonderworld'. Also, there's this funny classic meme from WoW I ran into earlier while levelling:

https://i.gyazo.com/7b17b04176fac3dd...d89b6d7d03.png

If 'buttons are buttons are buttons', I guess this is the ideal DPS class design?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

https://i.gyazo.com/7b17b04176fac3dd...d89b6d7d03.png

If 'buttons are buttons are buttons', I guess this is the ideal DPS class design?

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Remove 2 of those and we're getting somewhere!

It's true though, healers can't have complex dps rotation because it isn't their role to do that... if healers are bored devs can remove the power-creep, which will require more healing to be done - which is a legit concern. Making healers be dps characters is against the role philosophy. Tanks aren't meant to have complex dps rotations either. This is partly why most players prefer dps characters - complex rotations, higher numbers. Support characters need to respond to situations with different tools and improvise, which is fun in its own way.

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Originally Posted by Succor

It's true though, healers can't have complex dps rotation because it isn't their role to do that... if healers are bored devs can remove the power-creep, which will require more healing to be done - which is a legit concern. Making healers be dps characters is against the role philosophy. Tanks aren't meant to have complex dps rotations either. This is partly why most players prefer dps characters - complex rotations, higher numbers. Support characters need to respond to situations with different tools and improvise, which is fun in its own way.

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I disagree with many parts of this statement. Everyone's role is still to do damage, regardless of being a tank, healer or DPS player. Removing power-creep won't ever happen as it also removes the feeling of progression. You can give healers more complex DPS rotations so they can have more things to do in power-creeped content. The role philosophy is still for everyone to contribute to DPS in significant ways. Tanks and healers are indeed meant to have less complex DPS rotations than DPS jobs, but the current DPS rotation for all healers is way too simple and needs to be more complex.

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Originally Posted by Succor

It's true though, healers can't have complex dps rotation because it isn't their role to do that... if healers are bored devs can remove the power-creep, which will require more healing to be done - which is a legit concern. Making healers be dps characters is against the role philosophy. Tanks aren't meant to have complex dps rotations either. This is partly why most players prefer dps characters - complex rotations, higher numbers. Support characters need to respond to situations with different tools and improvise, which is fun in its own way.

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Doesn't the statement, "This is partly why most players prefer DPS characters -- complex rotations, higher numbers." Blatantly proove that tanking and healing explicitly not having engaging DPS tools is an inherently flawed design concept? I mean your statement could easily be summarized as "tanks and healers aren't supposed to have complex or engaging DPS, and that's why people don't play them." How does that not raise any red flags that something is wrong with how this is being handled?

Imagine if I went and said "yeah I don't season my food because it's not supposed to have added salt, pepper, and other spices. That's why most people hate my cooking." What would your response be? "Yeah, that's how things are meant to be" or "Sounds like you're a shitty cook" I'm leaning toward the later.

The same is true for game design. If no one likes playing tanks or healers because their rotations are boring and unfun, then maybe the fault lies within this inane mentality that this is how it's supposed to be. And maybe you could say that tanks and healers are meant to cater to a different style of player, which is true, however, gameplay elements like aggro management, mitigation, and HP recovery utterly fail to deliver on a level of depth that is of equal or greater depth to DPS rotations due to the severe lack of consistent engagement with these tools. Perhaps in an environment where damage was consistent to where having a healing rotation that had DPS rotation levels of depth was mandatory and thus a consistent way for healers to engage with the game, then that argument would hold water, but FFXIV could not be farther from that reality. Most content expects a negative amount of healer participation in regards to healing, and aggro management and mitigation needs aren't any better. This game is not structured in any way, shape, or form to support depth on those levels in a way that provides a consistent gameplay experience as a DPS rotation does.

Not everyone likes that, but this is ultimately an immutable fact of how FFXIV is constructed and cannot be changed without A Realm Reborn levels of reworking to the entire system. If someone doesn't want to be a healer that DPSs, then FFXIV will never satisfy that player. One button DPS spam may feel inoffensive to those players, but they are still designed to DPS anywhere between 80% to 100% of the time with their GCDs whether you're engaging with an actually designed job or mashing one button like you're thirsty for those 10 coins in a game of Mario Party and had a button masher minigame selected. We can either have the jobs be fun like DPS jobs are, or we can leave them in this sorry state for the shallow playerbase of people who aren't offended enough to drop the healer role.

But guys, if you want complex dps rotations why don't you play... dps classes? SMN and RDM have off-heals and rez, they would be ideal for what you want, no? Don't forget that a lot of people play healer for the simplicity of its dps rotation. I agree that it's very simple, but it works as intended. The complexity of the healer role comes from using the correct support skills at the right time and location, which I find pretty engaging tbh.

Also, the reasons you identify re healing pertain to all games that use the trinity. This is why newer games (e.g. BDO) have been moving away from the trinity and everyone is a tanky dps with self heals.