Make all Tank AOE Combos Cones Please

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

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As an FYI, from what I have gathered, basically limited to my FC, anyone who tanked frequently hated the Overpower change, the ones that liked it tanked very rarely.

Of those that tanked very rarely, how many do you think have started tanking more because of it? None.

If the goal was to make it more accessible to get more people to tank/use Warrior, based on my very very small sample size, it has not worked. Our resident Warrior hated the change.

I would even put a hypothesis in place that, the people who tanked often hated the change and the ones that did not liked the change or are indifferent, however, it still did not incentivise them to tank more, meaning you only annoyed the people who did play the job and potentially made them stop tanking as a Warrior in dungeons.

Also, with proper control of mobs, they did not circle around you and it has been said countless times. You need to keep them infront of you and not around you. By keeping them around you you are making the run less efficient for everyone.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

short

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Look who's talking :^)

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As an FYI, from what I have gathered, basically limited to my FC, anyone who tanked frequently hated the Overpower change, the ones that liked it tanked very rarely.

Of those that tanked very rarely, how many do you think have started tanking more because of it? None.

If the goal was to make it more accessible to get more people to tank/use Warrior, based on my very very small sample size, it has not worked. Our resident Warrior hated the change.

I would even put a hypothesis in place that, the people who tanked often hated the change and the ones that did not liked the change or are indifferent, however, it still did not incentivise them to tank more, meaning you only annoyed the people who did play the job and potentially made them stop tanking as a Warrior in dungeons.

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Certainly the case for me. I've only tanked (dungeons) for members of my static, and only because it basically means instant queues. I mean, I could play some other tank as "protest" but they are now all pretty much the same when it comes to dungeons anyway, so why bother...

I'll also add that generally when I explain how I actually used Coneverpower many do actually agree the change was bad, or at the very least, unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

LOL, I can't even...



this is kinda false...

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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No, they're actually right. The mobs will eventually spread apart during a pull once time passes or enemies die. They also stop grouping up unless the tank is consistently shifting themselves slightly to make the enemies regroup up. This is especially true with enemies with a large hitbox (ex: dragons). The problem with circle AoEs is mostly that the tanks don't feel the requirement to move as all the mobs, even when spread apart, will still be in their AoE range.

This is what drives me crazy when I have to DPS as a healer. My Toxikon II will either not hit all the targets because at some point, the middle enemy dies and the tank is still spinning in a circle and not pulling them closer with the cone after the remaining enemies fan out or can no longer be in proximity range when targeted individually because their hitbox is too big. Which is what brings https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png this back.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

No, they're actually right. The mobs will eventually spread apart during a pull once time passes or enemies die. They also stop grouping up unless the tank is consistently shifting themselves slightly to make the enemies regroup up. This is especially true with enemies with a large hitbox (ex: dragons). The problem with circle AoEs is mostly that the tanks don't feel the requirement to move as all the mobs, even when spread apart, will still be in their AoE range.

This is what drives me crazy when I have to DPS as a healer. My Toxikon II will either not hit all the targets because at some point, the middle enemy dies and the tank is still spinning in a circle and not pulling them closer with the cone after the remaining enemies fan out or can no longer be in proximity range when targeted individually because their hitbox is too big. Which is what brings https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png this back.

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That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack. Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack. Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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Cause I'm still using it when the party is moving to the next pull. I can pre-cast 4 shields, and if the shields break because the tank isn't sprinting (and I mean when I'm literally behind the tank, but I have instant cast DoTs so I can pull them first), then I'm getting additional stacks. At best, I get 4 additional ones (DPS are also right next to the tank and took damage). At worst, I get 1-2 because the tank generates one and I generate one from kardion before tank completely establishes aggro.

Also, because Toxikon II gains highest potency at 2 targets (330 first target + 165 falloff on remaining vs Dyskrasia II 170 potency on all targets), it's more preferable to hold onto Toxikon II until more enemies die or if you cannot target the enemies from a distance (AoE blocking the way from using Dsykrasia outside of sage's free oGCD healing or running between pulls). All healers lack an AoE DoT, so the time spent between pulls is spent with my single target DoT Eukrasian Dosis, which is generally more than enough for me to hold onto Toxikon II stacks and swap over to Dykrasia while running until the pull stabilizes.

Like... 3 Toxikon II stacks from loading into the instance is nice and all, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to generate addersting yourself between pulls. The players who don't do this don't care about it because the gain is very marginal, but I'll be damned if I don't because pulls get so boring anyway with 1 button DPS spam.

Aoe shapes are certainly not a defining character of a job. They are one of many tool the devs use to make the aoe rotation of each job different.

Not every job need a different shaped aoe. We dont need that many. Heck, as of before 6.1 we had a good variation in aoe rotations. May it be in the shape or how they have to takle it.
Dragoon is different with all the lines while using it jumps inbetween. Red mage is juggling between targeted circles and cone/line. Samurai was dancing togther with warrior and dark knight. Even the new job reaper has a cone even do it does circle aoe aswell. Ninja has to pray that the tank doesnt move the pile from doton, followed up with a targeting aoe in katon(which gives some mobility) into it 1-2 combo in which ninja wants to be in the middle of that pile.
the healers have something different going on with their aoe aswell even tho they are all just circles.

So yeah. A shape of an aoe rotation will effect how some job plays and that matters when we have 19 of them. It keeps them fresh from each other. I am not asking for stupid aoes like a jewish star, the moon and star from the turkish flag or a constant shape changing aoe.
Circles, lines, maybe half cicle? And ofcourse cones.

Cones and to an extend lines are just as functional as circle. Just because some hate it doesnt mean it is bad.

Funny how i wrote this on a thread with a memesish title.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack.

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HOLY WALKING CONTRADICTION, BATMAN! Do I have to explain tanking to you , to make this point? If you are properly dragging stuff together into a tight pack i.e. as things die off and that pack is becoming increasing chaotic, you are NOT hitting everything with a 5y circle AoE, the cone AoE does exactly fix that problem that was the whole point.
The cone gave you an extra 3y max range to work with , without sacrificing the potency of an ~80sq.y. option.
This is an awesome TOOL that only WAR had access to, and I contend after hearing all the arguments in favor of the cone removal, that this should have been an option to every tank. The reason it wasn't, seems to me , the only reason you never understood this point and why I had to give up my amazing tool. That feels dirty rotten, man, gaddamn.

Go ahead and say that extra 3y didn't matter, that it's fine for us tanks to be missing half the pack whenever we reposition because, well, we still hold agro either way with how braindead emnity is in this game. I mean that's a perfectly valid position to have, I would still disagree with you in that it feels awful to now miss a bunch of mobs I used to be able to hit just fine (on top of OTHER use cases I'm not even going into to stay on the topic of responding to your point!), but to act like the cone didnt' have a legitimate use that now feels awful to do stuff without, is just completely backwards and wrong. I think it shows to me you never realized you could do this, or you just didn't care, which again is like whatever fine, but what it's certainly NOT is a valid argument for the cone AoE being bad.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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I swear you're either hard trolling now, or seriously projecting here. I'm not going to spend even more time explaining why your advice is just gods-awful healing; clearly it's your performance, and therefor your opinion on game balance as a whole, that is being called into doubt here.

Either way, I think the point has been made. Not a single good argument for the removal of the cone. It was fine for an experiment to try it out, during raid releases that don't even feature encounters this mattered for, I guess.
But surely before the release of any new dungeon content, this needs to be fixed, right guys? There's no reason for this to go on for 3 expansions before they finally "look into it" and just easily fix a small mistake they made in 6.xx?

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Funny how i wrote this on a thread with a memesish title.

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LOL same, I'm thinking this aughtta go in a more serious or productive thread? But at this point idc, i think the point needs to be spread to any and all threads it is relevant and on topic to. There's only a handful of them anyway and the devs need to know this isn't just a small vocal minority thing, this is most WAR players putting lots of time into WAR. There is a clear difference between those players and the ones that picked up WAR, levelled it to 10 unlocked OP and thought "dang, I don't know how this thing works." And just never worked to build upon that thought. I don't care if they put in the work or not, it just shouldn't have come back to bite ME in the ass, like wtf did I do devs?? What did I do to incur your wrath doth so ???

Cones are better, circles are easier.

That's all, you can stop arguing now.

if the devs actually care about pve contents like dungeons, they wouldnt make war so strong with bloodwhetting, look at how bad drk is in dungeon and their miserable leveling experience, drk couldn't use stalwart soul in a lower level content until recently
if the players don't group mobs tight for a cone aoe, they probably don't care enough to do their rotation either, so idk why they even made this change, like they tryna fix a problem that wasn't really there and upset 90% of the playerbase so that the 10% can auto pilot