[SPOILERS] Hermes is a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by vehere

So you're saying he had a favorite.

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No, I'm saying he created them, sent them all off, kept one out of necessity and then developed an attachment to it.

Also it's clear that her connecting to the hive mind is a regular, routine thing she does to provide status reports, before reverting to her individual childlike self. We've seen it happen at least twice. I think from Hermes' perspective it's just another one of those, and there's no good reason for her to be playing up when it's just a regular process she has performed many times before without issue.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It's worth pointing out that Amaurotine civilization is based heavily on the ideal society described in Plato's Republic. Along with the idea of being ruled by enlightened philosopher kings who would guide and ensure the city would prosper to benefit all (sounds kind of like the convocation). Another idea is that it is best if people take on the profession that they are best suited for, and if you are working in the field that suits you best, you will be happy, as a matter of axiomatic fact. And if the whole city is happy, then everyone on an individual basis will be happy.

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

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Yeah, Amaurot is actually an interesting mashup of Plato's Republic and Atlantis, which was a society Plato invented to basically be the Goofus to the Republic's Gallant. Amaurot falls to its own flaws in the same ways that Atlantis fell to theirs.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Bear in mind that Lahabrea was considered a nutjob even back then. He was just very good at what he did.

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I'm noticing a rather concerning trend with Ancient society and putting nutjobs into positions of power and influence.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

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So he still just created a big amount of creatures for his own goal. In that way he is no different to the others. Also he as leader should really know that new creatures should be tested. So if he had send them out without any deep testing then he truly is a hypocrite. And if he had tested them, then he must have really ignored their strong reactions to emotions.

And he also forced Meteion to connect to the hivemind even when she seemingly did not want to do it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, I'm saying he created them, sent them all off, kept one out of necessity and then developed an attachment to it.

Also it's clear that her connecting to the hive mind is a regular, routine thing she does to provide status reports, before reverting to her individual childlike self. We've seen it happen at least twice. I think from Hermes' perspective it's just another one of those, and there's no good reason for her to be playing up when it's just a regular process she has performed many times before without issue.

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So he still creates beings for his own desire. For his own goal. Just like everyone else then. (And seemingly without any further testing unlike other Ancients)

Well when she was connected towards the end she was seemingly not fine. It ended even with her using her ability to hide. That alone should have told him that something was off. He still chased after her, still forced her to go continue her reports.

https://i.imgur.com/yNpXYwd.jpg

I apologize only for it being a strawman, it’s terrible quality I will never apologize for.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

They're both massive hypocrites. But then, so is nearly every other major character in the story. The WoL is quite a hypocrite themselves.

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Yes, I find this a poignant and quite amusing point given the circumstances. That is precisely why we mortals hate hypocrites so acutely, for who do you think they remind us so strongly of? The answer? Us.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Do we really need to do the "Venat is awful" thing in every single thread?

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I apologize in advance for being petty, and yet I feel rather strongly this must be said.

Do we really need to do the "Emet-Selch and also every ancient ever (barring our lovely mommy Venat, of course) is the worst thing since Archon loaf" in every thread?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I wasn't in the forums for Stormblood, but I feel like those perspectives in Stormblood were... rather different. At that point the line of 'Ascians and Garleans bad' was pretty simplistically put forward and not really refuted in the text, because the Pathos Trains hadn't come into the station yet. At that point it was like saying 'Nazis bad'; not exactly controversial.

The 'Venat bad' argument is just brutally simplifying and ignoring a genuine debate for... I dunno, the sake of being contrarian?

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No. No it is most certainly not. Every life has the right to fight for their lives, she took that away prematurely. In the end, her outcome worked out better the Emet's would have but if given the choice between the man who wants to restore life and the woman who told you all this shite about how she loved all life everywhere and then proceeded to give up on said life the moment we fucked off back to the future I'd choose him.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

A number of very strong reasons for this opinion have been put forward in the numerous debates over the subject throughout various threads. Only a handful of posters are just going "lol Venat bad," while the rest have made excellent points.

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Yes, it is rather intriguing that the Venat party is claiming reductionism on the side of their opponents and then proceeding to use reductionist reasoning to belittle the arguments the other side has made.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

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Hermes is clearly not at all suited to working on Elpis. He gets so incredibly attached to creations that doing his job and putting down one that is wildly violent practically throws him into a breakdown. It seems like the only part of it he liked was the raising of various animals, in which case he would have been better off in Loghrif's line of work.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I apologize in advance for being petty, and yet I feel rather strongly this must be said.

Do we really need to do the "Emet-Selch and also every ancient ever (barring our lovely mommy Venat, of course) is the worst thing since Archon loaf" in every thread?

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Personally I actually like Emet-Selch as a character quite a lot and find his motivations and ideas to be highly sympathetic (even if I ultimately disagree with them).I have no idea why this false dichotomy that people who like Venat must hate Emet-Selch or the rest of the ancients comes from.

Personally, I like Venat and hate Emet-Selch, but not the rest of the Ancients as a whole because Hermes and Hesperos are great. So is Gaia if we want to count her, but I personally do not.

I also don't see many people coming in to completely unrelated threads to talk about how awful Emet-Selch is. Unlike Venat, where it has now reached the point where people come into threads to literally compare her to satan.