So how is whm doing?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

it does make a difference. everyone else gets lucid, and every other healer is *mp positive* with no piety, while whm is mp negative.

i can die 3 times in a fight as astro and i can have mp for the rest of the fight. whm will run out of mp after some minutes, unless you just stop casting for a while

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Yeah But Astro is also hillariously overtuned rn, having an access to essentially 2 lucid dreams while restoring 5% MP with each draw is the funniest MP economy I've ever seen.

SCH & SGE recover 20%/21% MP every 60s and WHM can get 1 GCD heal for free every 60s now, for the sake of simplicity lets say medica 2 which costs 10% mp (but it can be a free Rez which is 24% MP) and Assize restores 5%. Hence why i said at best you'll get Assize back to 10% MP regeneration (or what I'd prefer, assize being on a 30s cooldown). They nerfed Thin air so that WHM's MP economy is in line with other healers. Though i have no clue what they were thinking with Astrologian.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Yeah But Astro is also hillariously overtuned rn, having an access to essentially 2 lucid dreams while restoring 5% MP with each draw is the funniest MP economy I've ever seen.

SCH & SGE recover 20%/21% MP every 60s and WHM can get 1 GCD heal for free every 60s now, for the sake of simplicity lets say medica 2 which costs 10% mp (but it can be a free Rez which is 24% MP) and Assize restores 5%. Hence why i said at best you'll get Assize back to 10% MP regeneration (or what I'd prefer, assize being on a 30s cooldown). They nerfed Thin air so that WHM's MP economy is in line with other healers. Though i have no clue what they were thinking with Astrologian.

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The problem with that though is that, unlike the other healers, WHM's oGCD toolkit is lacking considerably. While every other healer has a plethora of oGCD to offset the drain on their MP, WHM has all of 4 skills to try and do the same, the majority of which are on much longer CDs than anything that the other healers have to deal with. Thin Air countered this just by removing the MP cost of skills but now that it's limited to such an extent and no real additions to its oGCD toolkit (Lilybell on a 3 minute CD kills virtually any chance the skill had) WHM is much worse off than just a simple 5% MP economy

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The problem with that though is that, unlike the other healers, WHM's oGCD toolkit is lacking considerably. While every other healer has a plethora of oGCD to offset the drain on their MP, WHM has all of 4 skills to try and so the same, the majority of which are on much longer CDs than anything that the other healers have to deal with. Thin Air countered this just by removing the MP cost of skills but now that it's limited to such an extent and no real additions to its oGCD toolkit (Lilybell on a 3 minute CD kills virtually any chance the skill had) WHM is much worse off than just a simple 5% MP economy

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What you say is true but again. I never had MP issues while ignoring Thin air and just using it for a free rez (which someone else already pointed out in this thread, usually doesnt come up often) so i really don't see the problem. Sorry.
I know we lose lilies on death but if you don't die WHM just doesn't have MP issues period. I'd be great if we kept lilies upon death. Losing Blood Lily is punishment enough.

They totally shafted WHM

We are rock bottom in term of everything mana regen, dips not sure , no shield, our pure heal isn’t good, why bring WHM when AST do everything and more not to mention our 90 skill is a joke

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

What you say is true but again. I never had MP issues while ignoring Thin air and just using it for a free rez (which someone else already pointed out in this thread, usually doesnt come up often) so i really don't see the problem. Sorry.

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When I saw the changes made to Thin Air, I was like, oh right, that's a thing. I honestly never used Thin Air the entire ShB xpac; literally forgot to put it on my hotbar and never used it the old way. I also rarely had mana problems, aside from dying with lucid on cooldown. I carry ether for those occasions. If I don't die, and i'm using lucid semi-regularly, not even on cooldown, I never really had issues. Starting using it for Endwalker, and its pretty handy.

Seems like half of the kit costs no mana at all now. Most, if not all, of the instant casts we've gotten from 51+ have been 0 mp with a cd. If you're running out of mana without dying, you might be neglecting your cooldowns, or your party is simply failing too many mechanics. If you didn't run out under those circumstances, then it'd be pointless to even have mana.

I'm still hoping that at some point WHM will get a more full identity. It's already the most GCD dependent healer and they can make that it's niche since many people seem to gravitate to it for that very reason. We've said it constantly on this forum but Presence of Mind would be a wonderful trait. It could be a constant passive or maybe something that requires 4 consecutive cast of any spell to activate, granting the WHM 15 seconds of PoM that can be stacked up to a 60 second duration with continued cast. Let Lilies take 20 seconds to acquire while under PoM and upgrade Assize via trait to give ten seconds of PoM for faster ramp up after down time. If Presence of Mind offered an MP reduction to spell cost it would be a kit that truly encouraged ABC (always be casting) with a faster but simple play style that rewarded both pure healers and those adept at multitasking with dps. The longer cast times and heavy mp cost on everything would finally make sense compared to Astro since it would have a simple buff to upkeep to offset the differences.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the thin air nerf prevent them from using any form of low piety build? I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother is going to be fiending for crit/det gear with crit/direct hit melds (provided that's how meld priority still works) and I'm not sure where spell speed will fit in due to attack spells being on a 1.5 gcd. But it seems like WHM is going to be the most reliant on piety now to me, what with its only MP restoration tools being Lucid Dreaming and Assize .

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Maybe i'm the only one crazy here but i never ran out of MP on WHM during Shadowbringers and i never used Thin air for anything but a emergency rez that happens directly after i was rezzed myself (and thus had too little MP to rez myself) which the new Thin air also achieves.

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You either had poor Uptime (if you're only casting 70% of the time instead of 95-100% for example, you're using less mana) or you had a lot of Piety and low Spell Speed.

On low Piety during ShB, WHM would mathematically empty on mana before the end of a raid fight just using Glare if they didn't use Thin Air.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You either had poor Uptime (if you're only casting 70% of the time instead of 95-100% for example, you're using less mana) or you had a lot of Piety and low Spell Speed.

On low Piety during ShB, WHM would mathematically empty on mana before the end of a raid fight just using Glare if they didn't use Thin Air.

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I always melded DET & SPS, never melded Piety. Never had MP issues without using Thin air. During movement mechanicts id always spam Dia even if the DoT didnt need to be re-applied. Using Lucid and Lily spells is more than enough to keep WHM topped up. Again, the new thin air is effectively 10%-24% MP saved every 60s. I really dont get where you guys are coming from with WHM being unplayable without using Thin Air.

Also if we're really gonna use the new thin air exactly like the old one, meaning using both charges on glare every 120s and using 2 Lucids on cooldown to fit that 120s window.
ShB thin air saves 16% mana and Lucid restores 70%
ENW thin air saves 8% mana and Lucid restores 77%
Are you really gonna argue 1% mana deficite is enough to break WHM mp economy?

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I always melded DET & SPS, never melded Piety. Never had MP issues without using Thin air. During movement mechanicts id always spam Dia even if the DoT didnt need to be re-applied. Using Lucid and Lily spells is more than enough to keep WHM topped up. Again, the new thin air is effectively 10%-24% MP saved every 60s. I really dont get where you guys are coming from with WHM being unplayable without using Thin Air.

Also if we're really gonna use the new thin air exactly like the old one, meaning using both charges on glare every 120s and using 2 Lucids on cooldown to fit that 120s window.
ShB thin air saves 16% mana and Lucid restores 70%
ENW thin air saves 8% mana and Lucid restores 77%
Are you really gonna argue 1% mana deficite is enough to break WHM mp economy?

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First off, Thin Air is 12s. How where you only getting 4 casts in instead of 5? Even with low SpS, 5 casts every Thin Air was possible, even more so if you used PoM in conjunction with Thin Air.
Secondly, PoM was on a 150s CD in ShB vs the current 120s, meaning it's up more often and putting more strain on your MP.
Finally, Old Thin Air had a much higher saved MP potential than you're playing it out to be. On mechanics like Terminal Relativity, you would cast things like Medica 2 and Cure 3 as well as any Glares you could fit in as well, so in those instances, Thin Air was saving you much more than the current iteration could ever hope to match. Even if both charges are available to get rid of the costs of Medica 2 and Cure 3, the Glare casts are still coming out of your MP whereas before that wasn't the case.

So yes, that mana deficit is absolutely enough to break WHM's mp economy.