Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Understood. I figured someone ostensibly on the same side as them saying it might serve the purpose better.

Like, I'm excited to test out these new phases. A gap closer on a mage, hilarious (though I remember back in 2.X discussions on whether it was Meta for summoner to stay in melee to squeeze out that extra bit of DPS from the book slaps) knowing when the enemy was going to stay still and when you need to not stay still. Cool. I'm a bit of a reactional player, so having things set up so I need to know when to do what, I prefer that over a defined rotation. It's not much variation (the flow still goes Bahamut, ARR Trio, Phoenix, ARR Trio, repeat) but it is something and I can work with that.

These are the reasons I like the new summoner. The big boy summons are just gravy. People focussing on how the graphical changes make the class better just hurt my position.

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I’ve mained SMN since 2.2, while it’ll take a bit to get used to I’m rather excited for the changes.

The main issue I think SMN had was in identity. It never seemed sure of what its aim was. You had dots to keep up, except it was only for damage, your Aetherflow mechanic only half matched that, and half tied into burst phases with trances and demi summons, your pets outside of assults were fancy looking dots that before ShB could die, and it just felt, not complex but convoluted and at times unintuitive.

A bit of me is sad about pets going but another part of me says that they’ve had 8 years to wrestle with pet AI, there comes a point where the solution is to remove the problem all together.

I thought this thread already reached peak clownery, but now that aveyond-dreams's replacement has arrived, we were gifted the new knowledge that poison= necromancy. Everyone's looking at Reaper, but it turns out SCH is actually the wannabe necromancer job. Fairies are just family friendly voidsents.

I'm still of the opinion that current Summoner is more summoner-y then the new version, purely because you can actually control your summons. With the new version they just come down give you a buff and then leave. If you remove the model from the spell or replace it with something that isn't a primal, is it still a summoner? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by rewd

I thought this thread already reached peak clownery, but now that aveyond-dreams's replacement has arrived, we were gifted the new knowledge that poison= necromancy. Everyone's looking at Reaper, but it turns out SCH is actually the wannabe necromancer job. Fairies are just family friendly voidsents.

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Back to chime in again. Biolysis, which does deal with death through the decomposition of matter through bacteria and does fit into the necromancy theme, doesn't look like poison or viral magic. It looks like mathematic symbols which fits Scholar's entire "militaristic and scholarly" theme. Easy fix for the poison/viral DoTs feeling out of place on Arcanist/Summoner would be to change the names and VFX to be more in line with how Ruin and Painflare look; runic symbols. Or have SMN summon something to put poison on enemies, which there are only 2 poison related summons in the entirety of final fantasy, one of which that can never be used because of this game's lore. Eukrasian Dosis looks a better visual for Arcanist/SMN DoTs than Bio or Miasma ever did.

Wouldn't surprise me if Scholar is the next job that gets a complete from-the-ground-up rework in 7.0 and loses Ruin, Ruin 2, Bio and Bio 2 in place of things that will fit Scholar thematically as Scholar has already been effectively split from Arcanist.

See ya in November.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I'm still of the opinion that current Summoner is more summoner-y then the new version, purely because you can actually control your summons. With the new version they just come down give you a buff and then leave. If you remove the model from the spell or replace it with something that isn't a primal, is it still a summoner? Hmm...

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It’s made worse by the fact the new spells aren’t even tied to each pet directly. In the sense that they’re cast by them. Egi Assaults and Enkindle actually are and have a clear purpose within the current rotation. They’re just not pretty. If they were at least honest that they also hated the pet AI then that would at least be accurate. Hell my problems with Devotion and Carby’s new Shield are the same as the current version. Can’t use either while a Demi-Summon or avatar is out.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Back to chime in again. Biolysis, which does deal with death through the decomposition of matter through bacteria and does fit into the necromancy theme, doesn't look like poison or viral magic. It looks like mathematic symbols which fits Scholar's entire "militaristic and scholarly" theme. Easy fix for the poison/viral DoTs feeling out of place on Arcanist/Summoner would be to change the names and VFX to be more in line with how Ruin and Painflare look; runic symbols. Or have SMN summon something to put poison on enemies, which there are only 2 poison related summons in the entirety of final fantasy, one of which that can never be used because of this game's lore. Eukrasian Dosis looks a better visual for Arcanist/SMN DoTs than Bio or Miasma ever did.

Wouldn't surprise me if Scholar is the next job that gets a complete from-the-ground-up rework in 7.0 and loses Ruin, Ruin 2, Bio and Bio 2 in place of things that will fit Scholar thematically as Scholar has already been effectively split from Arcanist.

See ya in November.

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After FFXI, the Necromancer job - err, Scholar - was changed to be a tactician able to use white and black magic. Poison and related spells, as black magic, are part of a scholar's arsenal, as you can see in the FF3 remake or in FF11 (which is often used as a paradigm for job design, but only when it is convenient). They were also more prominent in FF14, before Square Enix decided that only idiots play healers.

If the topic is "what fits Scholar", I guess I'll go with what people that literally created Scholar think, and not what a random user on a forum thinks. You are out of luck here, friend.

EDIT: as a heads-up:

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Biolysis, which does deal with death through the decomposition of matter through bacteria and does fit into the necromancy theme

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Lysis doesn't mean death through bacteria. A lysis can occur through detergents, enzymes, pressure, sound, temperature (and so on), viruses and bacteria.

Man, did someone cast resurrection on Akiza because that's the level where these post have gone.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Yada Yada Yada.

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So when are you guys going to lead the charge to get Black Mage and Red Mage changed so it feels more true to Final Fantasy? Last I check BLM doesn't just cast Fire, Ice, and a little thunder. Red Mage could be used as the group healer and deal DPS/Enfeebling magic when not healing. And let's not even start with Bard or Dancer.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

It’s made worse by the fact the new spells aren’t even tied to each pet directly. In the sense that they’re cast by them. Egi Assaults and Enkindle actually are and have a clear purpose within the current rotation. They’re just not pretty. If they were at least honest that they also hated the pet AI then that would at least be accurate. Hell my problems with Devotion and Carby’s new Shield are the same as the current version. Can’t use either while a Demi-Summon or avatar is out.

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Honestly it looks like they just deleted pets then moved Egi Assualt and Enkindle to the caster with flashier animation. Real game changer lol.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Man, did someone cast resurrection on Akiza because that level where these summoner post are.

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I was just thinking this!! I forgot their name but remember their nauseatingly common posts back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Man, did someone cast resurrection on Akiza because that's the level where these post have gone.

So when are you guys going to lead the charge to get Black Mage and Red Mage changed so it feels more true to Final Fantasy? Last I check BLM doesn't just cast Fire, Ice, and a little thunder. Red Mage could be used as the group healer and deal DPS/Enfeebling magic when not healing. And let's not even start with Bard or Dancer.

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All this does is to reinforce the point. Black mage specifically is a perfectly designed job. Yes they cast more than fire, ice and thunder magic, but those are definitely the spells they’ve historically used the most. They’ve taken that history and made a very good job that people really like.

Red mage is a little trickier, but they’ve also done a good job with them too. Red mage is obviously typically closer to a hybrid, but in ffxiv it needs to fit into one box. They do have a couple of “white magic” spells including a potent cure and raise, as well as a party buff. It’s also the reason I think they’re getting magick barrier.

Wind, water, and earth magic are also more aligned with light than dark in this game.

2.0 summoner was very far removed from what they were. To build a job off of poison spells just doesn’t fit. Regardless if 1 of the characters has it.

SE has admitted in interviews that 2.0 SMN was rushed. They were rebuilding an entire game. The other jobs already existed with some kind of identity. My guess was that it was a little “homework copying”. They had to put together a job that summons things, and they saw how Blizzard made a class around it, and adapted it for this game. Thaumaturge had both poison and bio in 1.0. What perfect way to add them back into the game, than to put them on their DoT caster.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

2.0 summoner was very far removed from what they were. To build a job off of poison spells just doesn’t fit.

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It does if you realize the reason you're corrupting their Aether is because you're attempting to use the very tactics of primals against them. There's been plenty of terms for those afflicted by primal influence. An explicitly magical Poison/Curse isn't all that different from it. The Egi needed to take advantage of the damage being caused by those poisons to extract aether from your enemies, enabling you to call upon the Avatar spells. That's the mechanical flavor that was missing that connects Arcanist and Summoner together, reflecting what the actual lore states about their field of Arcanima.

That's the thing you're missing. Summoner and Arcanist ARE why we play this job. You know, the poison carby programmer/scientist mage subtheme that's carried the job since its inception. And unlike most subthemes within XIV classes the magic we use from it is directly responsible in the job quests for enabling us to defeat and summon primals at all. The people who fell in love with the job wanted to see the marriage of those individual aspects, to see SE intentionally combine both identities in the mechanics since its inception. Because mechanically it had the pieces for Arcanist, but not Summoner in ARR, and now in Endwalker it's the exact opposite. You know how Astrologians got mad when Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition had their extension effects removed because it 'killed Time Mage' for them? The removal of DoTs is in that exact same vein. Lore wise I wanted Poisons to empower our Egi. And I sure as hell wanted Carby to be an active, persistent participant in the rotation way more than these one and done Avatars and fake spells. Sure, the 'big flashy primal' aesthetic of the Summoner job wasn't there until Stormblood, but I wanted that contained to the Demi-Summons. I think Bahamut was merely awful from a mechanical standpoint back then (still is now, but for reasons that aren't getting fixed in Endwalker), but aesthetically? Ya'll kept being hyperfixated on the Egi instead of asking "Where in Bahamut's name is my 7-pulses of Akh Morn spam!?". Even so, SE retained the Arcanist side through it and Shadowbringers, and ya'll couldn't see past "Egi aren't pretty enough" when we literally summoned grandad birb and got exactly what 7.0 summoner is but better. Tying Phoenix to a single moment actually made it cool and distinct, while still respecting the Egi part of the rotation. Now we'se seeing that aspect and much more being stripped away. SE is killing that moment and the important part of the Arcanist job entirely. I took the 5.0 iteration's quality in and ran with it because all the little details that needed to be ironed out with Egi were almost entirely fixed, and instead of taking the last step of adding charge action autos and making Egi all ranged to help fix player input priorities SE gave up and catered to players who didn't even play the goddamned job despite getting exactly what they wanted four years ago. If you think 7.0 Summoner is the bomb, current Summoner did that and could have done so much more! It was a complete job. As of Endwalker it's half of one again.