Recognizing parasistic game design decision

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwHJqXKwRKM

Other sources:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...itic_mechanic/
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...103-2006-11-06

So Josh Strife Hayes has been really knocking some videos out of the park lately but this one applies to FF14 not nearly to the extent for WoW.

Effectively the best example is borrowed power systems that are put into an expansion that contribute nothing and can quickly be retired and noone would notice.

Some prime examples for FF14 are Diadem, Deep Dungeons and Blue Mage. Now Square Enix has walked a fine line here of making all of these things optional but it is worth it to be educated about this topic.

I personally believe FF14 is approaching a tipping point that WoW hit and took the borrowed power approach to combat ability bloat with obvious horrible consequences.

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I enjoy all the "prime examples" you listed. There is nothing parasitic about any of that content. Play the game and stop watching endless schlock from youtubers.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Blue Mage isn't really 'old and forgotten'. They get 1-2 content boost per expansion, and they can usually be used in some more recent content (Like doing into old instances for relic parts and the like). I would like some more unique stuff compared to the Masked Carnivale though. The fact it's 'do this fight one exact way or lose' kind of feels meh. More so when you have some personal issues, like I go into sensory overload fast, needed a friend in call with me to call out certain things for me or I couldn't do one of the fights.

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I agree with you at some point. But I was not talking about BLU. I was talking about Limited Jobs. BLU doesnt need to be the only limited job. Beastmaster for example would be a nice addition to Limited Jobs as well.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

ok then. When is the last time they added new features to Palace of the dead. It can be parasitic design but also not be abusive because it is optional. Do you think they are ever going to add new content to Eureka? Bodzja?

Palace of the dead is not a core or supporting design feature of Final Fantasy 14. It falls under optional content but without a doubt it has been abandoned with no hope of any changes.

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WHAT? Huh? You are confusing abandoned with complete, POTD is complete it has had its ending. And even if that wasn't the case how is the power borrowed. What power is/was POTD lending us?

Saying Diadem, BLU and PoTD/HoH could be retired and no one would notice is a bit of a stretch. PoTD/HoH is considered the best leveling method for DPS (outside of roulettes) since queues are so long. Diadem is easily the fastest way to level your gatherers and the materials taken out of there are used to power level your crafters. I wouldn't be shocked if the system was moved into 6.0 and we start building a new housing area through it like we did with Firmament. BLU is loved by many and there are tons of FCs that host their own BLU mage nights. I also doubt you haven't seen tons of BLU flying through FATEs in the overworld since it's extremely useful for fast farming.

Yes, PoTD may not have new content added to it, but that doesn't take away from what it's still used for. Leveling, achievements, mount farms, etc. Things don't have to be constantly updated for them to remain relevant and useful.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Saying Diadem, BLU and PoTD/HoH could be retired and no one would notice is a bit of a stretch. PoTD/HoH is considered the best leveling method for DPS (outside of roulettes) since queues are so long. Diadem is easily the fastest way to level your gatherers and the materials taken out of there are used to power level your crafters. I wouldn't be shocked if the system was moved into 6.0 and we start building a new housing area through it like we did with Firmament. BLU is loved by many and there are tons of FCs that host their own BLU mage nights. I also doubt you haven't seen tons of BLU flying through FATEs in the overworld since it's extremely useful for fast farming.

Yes, PoTD may not have new content added to it, but that doesn't take away from what it's still used for. Leveling, achievements, mount farms, etc. Things don't have to be constantly updated for them to remain relevant and useful.

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"Parasitic design" means, that a mechanic does not add much value to the core mechanics of a game. And if you remove that mechanic then the game does not change at all. BLU, Potd, HoH, Goldsaucer etc. are "parasitic" in this case. But IMHO this term sounds way worse than it is. "Parasitic design" can still be fun. The opposite of "parasitic" is "symbiotic". Adding "symbiotic" mechanics alters also the core mechanics of a game. In case of FF14 that would things like holy trinity, aetherit crystals, MSQ etc. If you remove those things then the game will immediately feel completely different.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

"Parasitic design" means, that a mechanic does not add much value to the core mechanics of a game. And if you remove that mechanic then the game does not change at all. BLU, Potd, HoH, Goldsaucer etc. are "parasitic" in this case. But IMHO this term sounds way worse than it is. "Parasitic design" can still be fun. The opposite of "parasitic" is "symbiotic". Adding "symbiotic" mechanics alters also the core mechanics of a game. In case of FF14 that would things like holy trinity, aetherit crystals, MSQ etc. If you remove those things then the game will immediately feel completely different.


Cheers

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Maybe it should be called supplemental design? And I agree on the need to speak on what the words mean- because it's clear many are not on the same page, and some are not even on the same page for themselves. Many of the negative bespoke mechanics of other games are here too (though many of them are also appreciated).

Supplemental vs symbiotic design does sound less antagonistic!

Parasitic definitely has negative connotations. And the definition it does have doesn't seem entirely bad to me. I think it's fine that say, the Bozja systems don't interact with the rest of the game. It lets them experiment with other forms of content that won't have a huge impact on the main game, or have to be taken away from the main game like artifact weapons in Legion etc. I think it's ultimately a good thing, so long as the game's main system continues as well.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I enjoy all the "prime examples" you listed. There is nothing parasitic about any of that content. Play the game and stop watching endless schlock from youtubers.

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To be fair, the YouTuber had a well reasoned argument that in no way described the Diadem, Deep Dungeons, and/or Blue Mage as parasitic. A parasitic design is a throwaway system that takes from the core gameplay without giving anything back to it. The video described those three forms of content as minigames, and it specifically identified minigames as being perfectly fine. The schlock that you perceived in that post wasn't coming off of YouTube.

You must not understand what borrowed power actually means OP. I won't go echoing the same statements that have already been made for 7 pages but I will just say this: XIV has enough actual long-standing issues that you don't have to go and start making ones up okay? Did your thrice-a-week thread propping up XIV and bashing WoW get boring or something?

Some people seem confused or did not watch the video obviously. Parasitic game design is a very broad term. If content is created for the sole purpose of being a time sink and is not added to later on and effectively abandoned then under the strict definition used in the video multiple areas of FF14 fall under. Eureka without a doubt falls under this as once Stormblood finished they stopped caring about it completely. Bozdja and Zadnor both fall under this definition until you realize one slight change and that was the ability to use it to level from 71 to 80.

The goal of the thread is to recognize features that exist and call them out if they ever try to put them in this MMO. I have a lot of faith in Yoshi P and his dev team but I have very little faith in Square Enix as a company given their track record over the last 10 years.