Dancer 6.0 Speculation

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Originally Posted by Jirah

id like to hear more of this input

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For further context on why I feel the DNC should go the route of high risk burster type.

As we already know, Step Finishes do more damage the closer we are to the targets, since they operate as a fading PBaOE that gets weaker the further the target is away from the DNCs position on triggering the finish, Flourish encourages further to fight up close two use both our melee procs and Blade Shower is further encouragement still.

Throw in our current "best" partners for Closed Dance are typically Melee dps (SAM/MNK/NIN) it's further encouragement to fight in close quarters as often as possible.

Throughout ShB I've tried to play DNC a variety of ways, but it's an inescapable truth that the very core mechanics in their kit are built around getting in close and personal and not stood back at range

This is where the identity crisis really hits home with the job, the desire to be something they aren't which pushes against what they are and what they inevitably should be in future.

They're range taxed, just like every ranged class yet spend the majority of every fight in melee or close to it.

They're support taxed because they have support abilities meaning their higher risk isn't rewarded if their partner isn't performing.

They're mobility taxed, which yes, this tax is fair, they're perhaps the most mobile job having a 3 charges omnidirectional dash.

They're heal taxed because their heal is a "group heal", not a personal one.


As I said, for me, I want them to make a decision on what they clearly want us to be from our core kit design and not bog us down with cannibalized supportive skills that don't mesh well with the core philosophy of the jobs current playstyle design.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

SNip.

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ahh i see what ur getting at i dont agree with the mobility tax as En avant is the way it is to do ur buffs and physical flourishes and maybe a step then en avant away but i agree DNC isnt as ranged as MCH or BRD. Which inherently makes it more organic in a way as MCH can run circles without a care in the world and BRD only needs to be close for Battle voice and song effects which 30 yalms isnt too worrisome hence why they dont have as much mobility skills under the context of single fights which is 90% of the game.

What would be a suggestion for this to no longer be a issue

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Originally Posted by Jirah

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This is the set of changes I'd probably look at, most of them likely wouldn't happen without some sort of rework.

Give us a range Cap of 25 Yalms matching up to Sabre Dance for all our range, Auto Attack, Cascade, Reverse Cascade, Fountain and Fountain fall

Move Sabre dance to an OGCD

Add a Bleed effect to one of our skills, Fountainfall seems like a good candidate

Remove the ranged tax on all DNC potency's

Curing Waltz removed, replaced with bloodbath

Devilment remains as is.

Improvisation reworked to work similar to Accelerate, while Flourish switches on your procs, Improvisation guarantees they'll generate Four Fold Feathers or Fan Dance will proc Fan Dance III (obviously it can't be used for all procs active as that would be overpowered, 3 seems fair)

My wishlist looks something like:

Esprit: I think a Single Target Saber Dance is boring and lazy. I think this about Flare/Despair too, but this isn't the thread for that. I think what I'd prefer to see here is something like a 15-cost oGCD spender, along the same lines as RDM's Reprise in the "I don't want to overcap but am not in a position to spend this properly" design space. Would mostly be used during Flourish/Technical windows when getting Esprit procs faster than you can use them is a thing that actually happens.

Improvisation: Yeah, pretty lackluster as it is now. Not sure what I'd do here. Maybe make it always give 10 per tick (or 5, if that's too strong. Just some number that actually makes sense), and having people in it gives you feathers? Dunno.

Dances: I don't want a 3rd dance. What I want is something that interacts with our dances. 3 general ideas here:
-- A skill to temporarily partner a 2nd person (Danse à Trois)
-- A Continuation-style ability that's used between steps. (I would call this one Flourish, but that's already a thing)
-- Something that's specifically used either after a completing a Step, or perhaps immediately after the buff from a Step ends. Maybe even a reason to actually let Standard Step fall off? (Encore)

Dance Partner: Something that actually cares about the location of your partner other than Curing Waltz would be nice. I'm imagining something like you toss your chakram at your partner and they throw it back, damaging any enemies between you. Or it spins around them and returns, whatever the animation has to do for that to work. (Relay)

Minor QoL wish: When dancing, make the steps replace the AoE combo buttons, as well as the ST ones.

Since Dancer has the lowest personal damage it should be reworked a bit just like how machinist or monk.

- rng on main skills should vanish so no more 50% to get a combo skill (which dmg is low as it is even if it procs) yet leave rng on the feather aspect
- flourish should either give at the start 4feathers or work like RDM accelerate allowing to get 1 feather for next 4attacks
- curing waltz potency up/CD timer down since such low potency for such a long CD is just bad
- add bleed dot to one of the combo skills or to sabre dance
- adding a single target esprit skill with high potency would be nice
- adding raise/revive/phoenix dance for the cost of 100esprit for a single target/partner or a small 5yrd zone revive (you exchange dps for support)
- lowering closed position skill level from 50 to 20/30 since its a core skill as a dancer and it would help lower level players to get a bit more dmg in old dungeons
- fan3 is a 100% proc after each feather
- sabre dance (esprit skills) cut from GCD and placed as oGCD so it doesnt choke rotations

- Imrprovisation skill needs more rewok, like after using it you are bound to the spot like always but you create something like a "stage". Like before, the more people are around you yo gain more espirt, but it would also adds feathers (4feather for full skill cycle). As for everyone on the stage they get buffed with "dmg up and healing potency up" so it would kinda make people want to be on the stage to buff themself but also help you gain resources in the process.

Other option for improvisation would be like how the name tells, you stand in a place like before gaining esprit but you are pressing dance moves in order in the 16sec gap to increase stacks (up to 8moves) on your finishing move. Kinda for all correctly pressed moves in the 16sec gap you get a 3k potency attack as finisher, each mistake or moveing would cancel the skill up and get you a 500-600pot as a fail prize.

Dancer over the whole expansion was not shown any love/buffs/changes/fixes/reworks since the class needs to get close for aoe skills its more of a risk one compared to mch and bard who can spam from far away, yet its suffering from lowest dmg syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Since Dancer has the lowest personal damage it should be reworked a bit just like how machinist or monk.

- rng on main skills should vanish so no more 50% to get a combo skill (which dmg is low as it is even if it procs) yet leave rng on the feather aspect
- flourish should either give at the start 4feathers or work like RDM accelerate allowing to get 1 feather for next 4attacks
- curing waltz potency up/CD timer down since such low potency for such a long CD is just bad
- add bleed dot to one of the combo skills or to sabre dance
- adding a single target esprit skill with high potency would be nice
- adding raise/revive/phoenix dance for the cost of 100esprit for a single target/partner or a small 5yrd zone revive (you exchange dps for support)
- lowering closed position skill level from 50 to 20/30 since its a core skill as a dancer and it would help lower level players to get a bit more dmg in old dungeons
- fan3 is a 100% proc after each feather
- sabre dance (esprit skills) cut from GCD and placed as oGCD so it doesnt choke rotations

- Imrprovisation skill needs more rewok, like after using it you are bound to the spot like always but you create something like a "stage". Like before, the more people are around you yo gain more espirt, but it would also adds feathers (4feather for full skill cycle). As for everyone on the stage they get buffed with "dmg up and healing potency up" so it would kinda make people want to be on the stage to buff themself but also help you gain resources in the process.

Other option for improvisation would be like how the name tells, you stand in a place like before gaining esprit but you are pressing dance moves in order in the 16sec gap to increase stacks (up to 8moves) on your finishing move. Kinda for all correctly pressed moves in the 16sec gap you get a 3k potency attack as finisher, each mistake or moveing would cancel the skill up and get you a 500-600pot as a fail prize.

Dancer over the whole expansion was not shown any love/buffs/changes/fixes/reworks since the class needs to get close for aoe skills its more of a risk one compared to mch and bard who can spam from far away, yet its suffering from lowest dmg syndrome.

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I've taken a decently clean run on e5s last tier and did some calculations.
I've only taken into account the RNG and Sabre Dance changes because those were the most specific ones with clear potencies attached. So no Flourish change, added bleed or Impro change taken into account.
It was roughly a 20% pDPS buff which is more than the gap between DNC and BLM at any given percentile and put my 80% run on par with a BLM, the strongest dps in e5s, playing at 95%. I've been specifically taking BLM to emphasize the insane buff this would mean because e5s was a very BLM-friendly fight, meaning it was an almost perfect scenario for it and can only get worse in pretty much every other fight.

That was not taking into account further buffs from Flourish, a dot added for free and Impro change, mind you.
Nor how much more valuable additional heal support or the option to ress for a dps loss is and how attractive it would make DNC compared to the other physical ranged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Since Dancer has the lowest personal damage it should be reworked a bit just like how machinist or monk.

- rng on main skills should vanish so no more 50% to get a combo skill (which dmg is low as it is even if it procs) yet leave rng on the feather aspect
- flourish should either give at the start 4feathers or work like RDM accelerate allowing to get 1 feather for next 4attacks
- curing waltz potency up/CD timer down since such low potency for such a long CD is just bad
- add bleed dot to one of the combo skills or to sabre dance
- adding a single target esprit skill with high potency would be nice
- adding raise/revive/phoenix dance for the cost of 100esprit for a single target/partner or a small 5yrd zone revive (you exchange dps for support)
- lowering closed position skill level from 50 to 20/30 since its a core skill as a dancer and it would help lower level players to get a bit more dmg in old dungeons
- fan3 is a 100% proc after each feather
- sabre dance (esprit skills) cut from GCD and placed as oGCD so it doesnt choke rotations

- Imrprovisation skill needs more rewok, like after using it you are bound to the spot like always but you create something like a "stage". Like before, the more people are around you yo gain more espirt, but it would also adds feathers (4feather for full skill cycle). As for everyone on the stage they get buffed with "dmg up and healing potency up" so it would kinda make people want to be on the stage to buff themself but also help you gain resources in the process.

Other option for improvisation would be like how the name tells, you stand in a place like before gaining esprit but you are pressing dance moves in order in the 16sec gap to increase stacks (up to 8moves) on your finishing move. Kinda for all correctly pressed moves in the 16sec gap you get a 3k potency attack as finisher, each mistake or moveing would cancel the skill up and get you a 500-600pot as a fail prize.

Dancer over the whole expansion was not shown any love/buffs/changes/fixes/reworks since the class needs to get close for aoe skills its more of a risk one compared to mch and bard who can spam from far away, yet its suffering from lowest dmg syndrome.

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give a rez to the dancer what a bad idea
and even though it would cost dps, it would make the job completely broken, the dancer is already the most credible of the 3 ranged dps,
on the other hand yes it is necessary to delete the rng .


well mastered, the dancer far exceeds the dps of the bard and the machinist,
while bringing colosal damage to his team.

Feeling wise, Sabre dance made into an oGCD ability as many have said before. Seems to be one of the few things that feels like it breaks the flow.

Improvisation always feels a little underwhelming and out of place. Not sure if the +% bonus healing would be better as an acquired buff you get for being in the field of affect rather than part of the channel, or something else.
The gain of Espirit feels a bit slow even with a full party beside you.

I really wish they would post what the % chance to gain Espirit is or something a bit more concrete. Feels like you gain it much faster under the effect under Technical vs Standard.

The single target weapon skills that change into dance skills should also apply to the AOE abilities. I am going to make a suggestion post about that one.

I wish Flourishing Fan Dance III had more weight to it other than another damage step, but hey, its a free oGCD AOE so can't complain too much on that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

For further context on why I feel the DNC should go the route of high risk burster type.

As we already know, Step Finishes do more damage the closer we are to the targets, since they operate as a fading PBaOE that gets weaker the further the target is away from the DNCs position on triggering the finish, Flourish encourages further to fight up close two use both our melee procs and Blade Shower is further encouragement still.

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Yes you want to be close for the procs, but that is not how dances work at all. They do the same damage point blank as they do at max range.

On topic the main thing I want to see from 6.0 is a reworked improv, it's boring and honestly just awful compared to the other "downtime" buttons. The most use it gets is weaving it for the healing bonus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

As we already know, Step Finishes do more damage the closer we are to the targets, since they operate as a fading PBaOE that gets weaker the further the target is away from the DNCs position on triggering the finish, Flourish encourages further to fight up close two use both our melee procs and Blade Shower is further encouragement still.

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That is not how Finishes work.

Finish does max damage to the nearest target, no matter how far away they are. All other targets besides the closest take only 1/4 damage. There is no distance scaling.

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Originally Posted by Silvra_Mihgo

I really wish they would post what the % chance to gain Espirit Esprit is or something a bit more concrete. Feels like you gain it much faster under the effect under Technical vs Standard.

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That's because under Standard step only you and your dance partner generate Esprit. Under Technical step everyone who wasn't in Narnia when you finished your dance generates Esprit.