SCH needs help

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Stronger/weaker in terms of healing potency only (and stronger only in 2 very specific scenarios).
You'd get Fae Gauge anyway if you used ED instead, so that is irrelevant.

To make things clear, when mitigating one hit (most common):
Sacred Soil: 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 150p DPS cost
Collective Unconscious (Diurnal): 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 0 DPS cost

The two scenarios where SS is stronger (healing-wise) than CU:
- Mitigating multiple hits (E4S Tumult, LL Splash).
- Using SS after the hit for one extra HoT tick (600p total healing).

As I've repeated time and time again, SS' opportunity cost makes it worse than CU in most cases.
Unless you're running Noct AST. In which case your cohealer is WHM or an AST, and SS isn't in the picture.

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Actually SS has a 3rd, SS is flexible while CU is not , single hit CU wins, repeated hits SS wins but SS can be used for both CU shouldn't be.

SS is also placeable while CU is not meaning forced solo/group separation mechanics can have SS used while CU becomes half as effective or worse. (These are common enough in savage+ content, heck even Extremes have them)

yea but we are comparing ogcd vs ogcd. ast have better ogcds period

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Actually SS has a 3rd, SS is flexible while CU is not , single hit CU wins, repeated hits SS wins but SS can be used for both CU shouldn't be.

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This is the first scenario. Multiple hits. If SS could not be used for a single hit (or if it was weaker) then it wouldn't count as directly stronger compared to CU. Always keeping in mind not holding CU.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

SS is also placeable while CU is not meaning forced solo/group separation mechanics can have SS used while CU becomes half as effective or worse. (These are common enough in savage+ content, heck even Extremes have them)

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Its the opposite. If you tap CU, the regen effect will stick no matter where the party needs to go. For SS your party has to stay in it for it to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

AF was for sure a core component of SCH healing back in SB, but as I've mentioned in that other thread that took several hits in ShB (Seraph, Fey Blessing, Recitation). The important part that tied (and still ties) everything together was ED. Otherwise AF tools had no cost, and were basically WHM Lilies with a different charge mechanism and no Misery payoff.

As for SMN I have to admit I've never played the job. To me it seemed like AF was the starting point of the whole summoning loop: use AF abilities and trances to unlock Bahamut and then Phoenix. In that light making ED give AF makes perfect sense.

I personally believe making AF a DPS CD to unlock your healing abilities would be a bad idea, but we are in agreement that AF healing/DPS management should absolutely be a key part of the core SCH loop. New AF-based DoTs would be really nice, for instance.

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In 5.0 the only thing ACN/SMN aetherflow is for is Fester and Painflare, that's it, there is absolutely no other interaction with the toolkit. In 3.0 and 4.0 you converted Aetherflow stacks into stacks that you used to activate Dreadwyrm trance. Which they removed in favor of making DWT a straight cooldown.

And I believe where we differ is in how aetherflow itself would be used. I'm personally content with energy Drain being the go to dps skill for dumping aetherflow. If I had to add something I'd probably re-implement Shadow Flare and tweak its potencies where it's worse then energy Drain in single target but a gain in AoE. Like I mentioned in a previous thread. What i personally would like to see is your dps spells helping you build fae guage and a new dps skill to serve as a dump for the excess with restrictions on it. While I did throw together my concepts with some thought I'm ultimately not a game dev so I can't claim to know how to execute it completely.

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Originally Posted by Whichi

Im not forgetting anything energy drain also applys to faerie gauge not just healing actons.. Plus my point saying that its going to stay in the same spot as stormblood means that it was rarely used. The point is that it is not NEEDED theres always something else that will get the job done better. Also you will RARELY get every player to get all ticks of soil for the full 600 potency or there will be overheal because you want to mitigate something. The point is anytime you think you can use "sacred soil" The reality is that there is a better cheaper option that isnt sacred soil. Lilys star any astro off gcd recitation abilites fairy skills. Sacred soil is just not needed. Even when i run shiva SAVAGE the hardest current fight as SCH i never use any atherflow healing(aside from recitation indoms or excogs) because its not really needed. its just extra and totally wasteful causing you to lose damage in most scenarios.

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The fact that Energy Drain also generates fae guage does not change my stance on that matter. Every aetherflow stack you use outside of Dissapation has the potential to be an extra batch of healing via Fey Union and Fey Blessing, so no it is a factor I'm keeping in mind concerning the effectiveness of Sacred Soil compared to collective. It means that Energy Drain has the capacity to store some healing for later when its needed, and your aetherflow heals have extra effective potency.

I would, however like to look at another skill you've used to compare against Sacred. That being whm lillies. Whm lillies are only a dps gain in fights where Misery can be used on two or more targets. Each lily you cast is a Glare not being cast, and while Misery does refund them, it effectively looses one glare cast in the process.

3x Lily + Misery = 900 potency
4x Glare = 1200 potency.

So in the case of WHM/SCH. The 150 potency of using an aetherflow skill can be less then the 300 potency WHM looses using lilies and Misery. So what I'm seeing is that, outside of cleave encounters it's worth more dps to trade an energy Drain to do say Sacred Soil or a non Recitation-Indom to prevent a WHM from needing to use a lily.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

To make things clear, when mitigating one hit (most common):
Sacred Soil: 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 150p DPS cost
Collective Unconscious (Diurnal): 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 0 DPS cost

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Genuinely don't understand why you're trying to compare Diurnal CU to Sacred Soil instead of Nocturnal CU when they both fill completely different niches. Especially since you'll mostly see Diurnal AST being paired with SCH anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the two complements.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

So in the case of WHM/SCH. The 150 potency of using an aetherflow skill can be less then the 300 potency WHM looses using lilies and Misery. So what I'm seeing is that, outside of cleave encounters it's worth more dps to trade an energy Drain to do say Sacred Soil or a non Recitation-Indom to prevent a WHM from needing to use a lily.

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Except 3 Lilies is a lot more healing than one Aetherflow skill. As long as there's enough damage in the whole fight to do all your Misery, each Afflatus skill is a 75p loss over Glare, a bit less than Ruin II, and less than the multiple Aetherflow required to do the same job.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Genuinely don't understand why you're trying to compare Diurnal CU to Sacred Soil instead of Nocturnal CU when they both fill completely different niches. Especially since you'll mostly see Diurnal AST being paired with SCH anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the two complements.

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I find it hard to believe Diurnal CU and Sacred Soil fill completely different niches if they have almost the same effect for mitigating a single hit (most common use case).

I'm not comparing against Nocturnal CU because:
- SS is clearly better in the single-hit case, since it also heals the party.
- You're not gonna have a Noct AST + SCH pair, since the toolkit synergy is atrocious. There is no planning question of whether the SCH should use SS, then AST should use CU only if SS is on CD.
- Diurnal AST is all-around better unless you absolutely need Noct AST shields, and can't get by with Neutral Sect.

Re: Diurnal all-round better

Meh, I prefer Noct in dungeons over Diurnal. Mostly because I usually play Scholar and feel more comfortable with regular Shields and occasional Regen versus the reverse. I find being able to place shields up at will at strategic points goes much farther than a passively ticking regen for letting me dps more. The Regen once a minute and neutral sect is more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

I find it hard to believe Diurnal CU and Sacred Soil fill completely different niches if they have almost the same effect for mitigating a single hit (most common use case).

I'm not comparing against Nocturnal CU because:
- SS is clearly better in the single-hit case, since it also heals the party.
- You're not gonna have a Noct AST + SCH pair, since the toolkit synergy is atrocious. There is no planning question of whether the SCH should use SS, then AST should use CU only if SS is on CD.
- Diurnal AST is all-around better unless you absolutely need Noct AST shields, and can't get by with Neutral Sect.

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Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

As for the niche thing, it's mostly to do with what its meant to substitute in lieu of having a WHM (for Diurnal), and SCH (for Nocturnal). In Diurnal Sect, Diurnal CU is there as a substitute for both Asylum and Temperance on a much shorter recast. In Nocturnal Sect, Noct CU is a substitute for Sacred Soil but on a longer recast timer. Both are inferior to what they're trying to substitute but are still extremely usable and valuable. It's the same deal with Noct Helios stacked with Noct Opposition being similar to a Deployed Critlo but on a shorter recast.