Tenacity

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Yet you're not willing for changes to be made to make good use of itemization or stats.

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You should learn how to comprehend what you read and not just word-vomit nonsense.

It all depends on whether you are building a tank that is a dps or a tank that can survive. A tanks job is to be the punching bag that can take the hits while the dps burn down the enemies. All too often these days, tanks want to be the ones in there doing the most damage. I cannot speak as much for the other tanking jobs as I can for PLD (because my partner is PLD), but he has an almost full Tenacity build and can survive waaaayyyy longer than other tanks that I ever try to heal. Even tanks with slightly higher armor levels seem squishy in comparison. And he still has plenty of dps output to properly contribute to the group. Not every job is a full on DPS job in this game. So when used properly, tenacity can be a huge boon to tanks and their survival.

Just remove everything all stats and all skills and leave 1 skill only.
The glamours and RP is the real end game that matters after all.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Perfectly valid use of Tenacity.
I'm not usualy running savage on tank, so I tend to meld Tenacity too, it softens the blow of being undergeared.
As a result I was able to very comfortably clear Ruby EX as an i461 GNB.
(It's quite annoying that so many PF specify 470 minimum, when I can probably do that fight better than most others)

I may take my GNB forward more as a main now though, so if I'm up to gear I'll probably want more damage over defence.

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Isn't Ruby EX locked at il470? Therefor would it not be impossible to que into the duty? Normal is il455, EX is il470...

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Isn't Ruby EX locked at il470? Therefor would it not be impossible to que into the duty? Normal is il455, EX is il470...

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Premade parties ignore ilvl and role requirements.

Tenacity could do with a bit of an overhaul. Or at the very least a bit of rebalancing. Looks good on paper, but the defensive side is worthless in 90% of all situations, so even if the dps boost is minor, people just default to DH / crit.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Uh... you are a bit wrong here. The diminishing returns you are describing here are only relative to the damage healers and dps would take. When comparing the damage taken between tanks, the 20% damage reduction from Tank Mastery is meaningless. A tankbuster that deals 150k damage without any additional mitigation from buffs or Tenacity is a 150k tankbuster on all 4 tanks.

The mitigation from Tenacity is always applied; so the mitigation that experiences diminishing returns is actually that from the cooldowns. The max Tenacity in 5.2 is 3845 at i500 which gives a .8975 damage taken multiplier.

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Im not a bit wrong here, the 20% from the trait is still present in the damage formula and is interacting with tenacity always http://allaganstudies.akhmorning.com/guide/damage/, so it will suffer the same diminishing retuns as any other mitigation buff as they are all multiplied together.

Think of it like this in Stormblood as a simplified example (i.e. not taking into account all the other variables which would make ten even smaller)

Scenario A): Tank in no tank stance with 5% tencacity mitigation takes a hit that would do 50k

50000*0.95= 47500

Scenario B): The same tank in tank stance

50000*0.8*0.95 = 38000, or this to say because of diminishing returns tencacity only provided 4% not its "raw" 5%.

We now exist in a perpetual scenario B as of ShB where the tank stance defence buff is always active, so is always interacting with any buffs you use, tenacity or otherwise

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

At ~i500 differences between minimum and max Tenacity should be pretty noticeable.

A tomestone set has 2028 Tenacity at base (.951 damage taken multiplier) which can be increased to 2954 Tenacity (.922 damage taken, a 3.1% decrease in damage taken) with melds and food.
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for minimum Tenacity gives 580 Tenacity (.994 multiplier)
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for max Tenacity gives 2872 Tenacity at base (.925 damage taken multiplier) which can be increase to 3845Tenacity (.8975 damage taken, a 3.0% decrease in damage taken) with melds and foods.

The difference between minimum and maximum mitigation is pretty big this tier with a 9.8% difference in damage taken.

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And that is essentially a permanent Reprisal debuff on the mobs.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Im not a bit wrong here, the 20% from the trait is still present in the damage formula and is interacting with tenacity always http://allaganstudies.akhmorning.com/guide/damage/, so it will suffer the same diminishing retuns as any other mitigation buff as they are all multiplied together.

We now exist in a perpetual scenario B as of ShB where the tank stance defence buff is always active, so is always interacting with any buffs you use, tenacity or otherwise

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While the mitigation from tank mastery is calculated in game the problem is your frame of reference. Going off of how much damage non-tanks take is a very bad one as Tankbusters are all calculated based on the damage tanks would take, not how much the dps or healers would take from one.

Tankbuster base damage is likely calculated on the devs end by taking the expected hp of the tank and then multiplying the damage dealt by 1.25. This means a 50k tankbuster is actual a 62.5k attack but was designed to be a 50k attack.

Mitigation is applicable based on the following order:

1. Base damage - The actual potency of the Attack (requires a naked dps/healer taking the hit to see)
2. Tank Mastery - For all Tanks this is a .80 multiplier. The effective base potency taken by the Tanks of a certain ilevel.
3. Defense/Magic Defense - Mitigation gained from Gear ilevel. (Only way to actually see this mitigation is to take the attack naked and compare it to taking the attack in your gear)
4. Tenacity - First actual variable mitigation. At i500 this will be a multiplier between .994 and .8975.
5. Block/Parry - RNG procs that will apply a .80 multiplier to all non-Shadow damage (Block) or a .85 multiplier to physical damage (Parry). Block has priority over Parry so any increased mitigation from Block will diminish the mitigation gained from Parry. Paladin and Gunbreaker can influence the proc rate of these.
6. Cool down 1 - first cooldown used
7. ...
8. Cool down N - last cooldown used

Going from 1 to 8 might show the total mitigation achieved by the tanks in comparison to the dps and healers but that information contains extraneous information that is not useful to the comparison (1 through 3 will be the same for all tanks for the same ilevel which renders them moot). Using them is in effect an attempt to pad out the mitigation to make Tenacity's benefit look inferior to its actual in play benefit. 3 to 8 is where the relevant Player controllable mitigation is happening.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And that is essentially a permanent Reprisal debuff on the mobs.

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Pretty much and it will likely only get better next tier with 5.4.

Much of the problem with Tenacity in StB was that the amounts required to get anything close to a relevant amount of mitigation was close to impossible.

As long as DPS checks matter (and 5.2 is certainly pretty easy in this regard), and Tenacity doesnt result in GCDs saved by the healers, offensive stats will always be better. DPS is the only thing that matters in FFXIV, everything else is simply pointless. Say thanks to the casual baddies :)