Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

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Originally Posted by linay

Arguably, it is, because that's one meaningful distinction you can make.

Regardless, any content you have to use the party finder (at least, for NA, maybe EU as well) due to difficulty is definitely not casual content. So if you want to argue that current Savage raid is not hardcore content, you can sort that out with the people who say there is no midcore content, because neither Savage raid nor (arguably) Extreme trial is casual content.

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I'd argue that the way many people think about casual content is wrong. It really looks like "casual content" is self-completing content to you guys. Content you can join and clear without knowing a thing about the game or your job and without being accountable for you actions since you can just be carried by the rest of the party/alliance. That's the case for dungeons and most of the 24 man raids.

I'd say casual content is content that can be cleared reasonably fast with some practice by a group of coordinated people without serious physical or mental disabilities.

Now, clearly difficulty is subjective. Some people don't understand crafting rotations and find them difficult, but I think no one in their right mind would then proceed to define crafting as "hardcore content". But at the very least, extreme trials and the first 2-3 turns of savage can hardly be defined hardcore content. They just require you to...play and think, I guess? But I do realized that when the rest of the game can be completed with zero effort, even that may look like an ordeal.

Personally, I would define ex trials and the first turn of a savage tier as very casual friendly.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I'd argue that the way many people think about casual content is wrong. It really looks like "casual content" is self-completing content to you guys. Content you can join and clear without knowing a thing about the game or your job and without being accountable for you actions since you can just be carried by the rest of the party/alliance. That's the case for dungeons and most of the 24 man raids.

I'd say casual content is content that can be cleared reasonably fast with some practice by a group of coordinated people without serious physical or mental disabilities.

Now, clearly difficulty is subjective. Some people don't understand crafting rotations and find them difficult, but I think no one in their right mind would then proceed to define crafting as "hardcore content". But at the very least, extreme trials and the first 2-3 turns of savage can hardly be defined hardcore content. They just require you to...play and think, I guess? But I do realized that when the rest of the game can be completed with zero effort, even that may look like an ordeal.

Personally, I would define ex trials and the first turn of a savage tier as very casual friendly.

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Casual content is something you can do casually. There are two applicable meanings: either content that you can do in a relaxed/unconcerned manner and/or content that you can do in a noncommittal/impermanent/irregular manner.

When the NA community decides it has to use the party finder to clear Extreme trials and Savage raids (including the first turn of each tier), it has branded those contents as non-casual.

Again, if you have a problem with the label of hardcore, you can take it up with the people who might not agree that they are midcore contents, because those are the only two valid options as far as the NA community is concerned.

P.S. On the matter of being carried, that's just the nature of group content, but enough people still have to know what they're doing to get a clear. Even solo instanced duty can be failed, so you do have to know something about the game and you are accountable for your action for all contents. The difference between each content is just the degree to which the party can accommodate your weaknesses.

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Casual content is something you can do casually.

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... wut?

thats not ANY of the standard ideas of "casual".

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this is a subscription based MMO, should have been obvious that i was talking about those not Korean p2w cash grabs that rely on whales.

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Thats an irrelevant distinction in an era where subscription games make a majority of their money in a cash shop, and even more irrelevant when you consider theres only like, 4? major subscription MMO's left and the rest are cash shop freemium.


Did "casuals" fund EQ? Surprisingly, no. People who werent heavily involved in the raid scene but didnt consider themselves "Casual" outnumbered those who did in most every era of EQ.

In WoW? Yes. But wow was heavily marketed as "hey, come be casual and do 99% of what you want without having to look up how your class or the game works" and its first raid was clearable by 10 competent people and 30 monkeys banging a keyboard. "Casuals" raided 40 man dungeons once a week and could clear it in a couple hours, which by logic used by several in this thread, would make those players not casual. (its also how raids and even EX content in this game works).

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Originally Posted by Barraind

... wut?

thats not ANY of the standard ideas of "casual".

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Well, that's what casual generally means. How is it casual content if you can't do it casually? That's like saying something is easy content, but it' not easy to do.

I don't know if I'm getting jaded or what, but it seems to me that the main problem is that the majority of the playerbase don't actually want to play the game, they just want the skinner box rewards.

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Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym

I don't know if I'm getting jaded or what, but it seems to me that the main problem is that the majority of the playerbase don't actually want to play the game, they just want the skinner box rewards.

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That does indeed seem a trend when gradual changes prioritize efficiency over engagement, sadly.

I guess the problem them is finding something that's both broadly and starkly enjoyable enough that people again want engagement above efficiency?

Such might or might not also benefit from greatest-efficiency tasks being curtailed. For instance, if the roulette was just there to accelerate your queue by allowing any dungeon to give the same rewards as one that would fit you, it would still function in its alleged purpose, but wouldn't be so obligatory as a daily task.

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Originally Posted by Razard

So about that who's funding what?

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I missed that part where he saying othewise. But yeah, every mmo lives mostly because of whales and casuals, that's really common thing. But FF is kinda another story, because in WoW casual stuff can be enjoyed by hardcore players as well, because it's still PvE or PvP, while in 14 casual stuff is kinda different from those things. I will never use gpose, gardening, new game plus or any of that stuff, its not PvE nor PvP(which is broken from the core). I don't think people who came to play those aspects will enjoy this kind of casual stuff, while lower difficulties and stuff like reputation grind is more appealing. FF do make some of that content, but it burns out very fast, so you always need to take a break between patches.

i prefer to see better rotations, skills, make fame more fun to play instead of focusing about some optional rooms or puzzles

Because unless it's the only dungeon in Roulette (which at that point it's not a roulette), people will quit the dungeon when they see it. It happened with Pharos Sirius back in 2.1: hardest dungeon back then (people actually wiped), but also came out with two easier dungeons (Copperbell and Haukke). People would immediately leave Pharos Sirius.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

For instance, if the roulette was just there to accelerate your queue by allowing any dungeon to give the same rewards as one that would fit you, it would still function in its alleged purpose, but wouldn't be so obligatory as a daily task.

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The roulette is not an obligatory daily task now. Spamming the highest dungeon you can enter is sufficient for experience points and/or tomestones (and may even be better in terms of keeping up with gear upgrades as you level), not to mention the other means of gaining said rewards.