Limited Job #2: Beastmaster

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Originally Posted by Eli85

This logic is so flawed it's comical. So, you surveyed every single active player, and they all told you that they play it for a few weeks then see no reason to get back to it? I doubt this. Maybe you feel this way? Possibly. Or your friends? FC? Or you think some forum goers think this and then you apply it to everyone? What a place we're in.

You know who actually knows about these things? The developers internal metrics. So why don't we let them read their metrics and let them make decisions on what people actually play and for how long? It's a much better determination than your anecdotal evidence.

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I'd like to see this data, but I guess we won't ever. They put resources into PVP as well but there is a very broad consensus that it's terrible in this game, and is only ever taken up due to incentives like gear uniquely accessible through it. Yet how much development time has it consumed when you consider all the re-balancing and the new maps which do little to even improve on its uptake, let alone enjoyment of it...

With their resources spread as thinly as they claim they are, e.g. in relation to the two new races, you would certainly hope the above is true. For the moment all we have to go off is unofficial metrics, like Lucky Bancho's (which put it at 17-18% for NA and EU and 27% for JP at max level as of 9 months ago), but those just show how many people capped it and not necessarily how many people actually enjoyed it. Unlike raiding, or even PVP or Eureka, it's not really a repeat activity.

What they should be asking with any feature they add is not just whether there is a reasonably high uptake of it (a particularly flawed approach with non-repeating content), but whether it's adding any value to the players beyond achievement points or pieces of gear, i.e. whether it's enjoyable for its target audience. Because BLU's figures might only be as high as they are due to completionists in pursuit of achievement points.

They may be looking at figures that they think indicate players appreciate the content, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. Their approach with failed content generally isn't to abandon it but to rework it.

I am still hopeful that the job will be rehabilitated one day into a full job but if it's not, at least it leaves open a slot for a true caster job to be added.

It's kind of interesting to note that BST was, in a way, FFXI's equivalent to a Limited Job. It wasn't ACTUALLY Limited - there was nothing stopping you from bringing a BST into any activity - but it was widely considered by the playerbase to be a solo job. Folks rarely took it into endgame content, and since it could kill regular enemies so efficiently on its own it had little interest in exp parties either.

BLU was pretty much a Limited Job in that game for similar reasons - though a big reason that it stayed out of endgame (usually) was the horrific amounts of TP feed its attacks caused. Enemies in that game had special abilities that required they charge up an internal TP meter, and being hit by player attacks was the primary way for that meter to fill. BLUs' most powerful attacks were multi-hit attacks that charged that internal meter very quickly, causing those enemies to spam their special abilities quickly - and in the case of many boss mobs, those TP abilities were devastating enough that healers needed time to recover the party after each use.

Even if those jobs turned out to be Limited in practice in FFXI (and quite enjoyable in spite of it!), I don't like the idea of ENFORCING Limits, as is the case with BLU in this game. I don't want to see it happen to BST either - but I have to concede that if BST is added at all, it will likely be Limited. Its job concept is exotic, compared to the mainstream jobs, and while I can think of ways to make Beastmaster work as a full job, I doubt the devs will have the patience to work it out.

(Charm would be the first thing to go, I'm certain, so if that's core to your concept of BST, good luck in ever seeing it as a full job. It would more likely end up similar to SMN, with a couple of different monster pets to summon and use in combat.)

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Originally Posted by He-Saiyan

Limited or not, just don't mess it up like Matsui is doing BST in FFXI. Make it a good job. If it is good, people will play it regardless.

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It's been a while since I last played FFXI (I quit shortly after completing Rhapsody of Vanadiel), but BST was pretty much the same as ever at level 99. Has it gone through some major changes, recently? How did Matsui mess it up?

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

I could get behind this, especially if they took the lessons learned from BLU to flesh it out further right from the start. It really does feel like we'd have two choices with a BeastMaster class. Either we get a limited job but with the ability to go a little crazy with it, including the possibility of funky pet controls but with cool powerful abilities, or we get a watered down job that can do End Game content but is BeastMaster in name only. Other users in this thread have posted a couple of their unlimited BeastMaster ideas but I just feel those would end up with a monk/mage that has animals pop out for occasional attacks. Isn't that just what we've already been complaining about with Summoner for years already? Just essentially one button "Hey, here's my animal!" attacks before it disappears into the ether? If what it would take to have a proper BeastMaster is to limit it then I'd actually rather have that.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

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It's with the idea in mind that they'd perform adjustments to make it work and obviously not just take it as it is... either way, the likelihood is that a fourth caster will be added in 6.0 or 7.0, so there will be one in the future.

I think in the end its very simple: We know FFXIV devs are spread too thin. There are direct statements, and evidence looking at sub-systems of the game forgotten and left dying for sometimes more than a year.
We also know the implementation of the first limited Job was an unmitigated disaster, BLU is basically dead content, bug-ridden and has little to no repeatable gameplay value. You touch it once for a few days, push it to max, and are done with it.
Then we see all those other sub-systems that are not updated anymore, and dead in the water: Mahjong, Verminion, Chocobo Races for the Saucer, then we have Fishing lacking its lvl 80 gameplay, PvP recently being all but deactivated and generally not working well, Squadron gameplay, Grand Company rewards and ranks, Housing having major issues (though its not dead really, I ll admit that), Guildhests and of course BLU.

To add to that, content pace has slowed down for dungeons, almost all new content is now released in a permanently outdated gear range, and aside from the MHW crossover and the ultimate fights once in a blue moon, there has been no new concept or subsystem added for max-level gameplay beyond the typical content rotation of 4 raidbosses every 6-7 months.

In light of these critical shortages, the thought of adding yet another subsystem that cannot be maintained and will be impossible to keep relevant sounds like a truly, truly bad idea to those who would rather have one or more of the OTHER shortages being adressed.

HOWEVER: I am always happy to have new classes. I think the WoW Hunter in the olden days had a good idea of a class that tames beasts, but ultimately they are pretty similar to each other, mostly cosmetics and one special ability. That way balancing is easier, and collectors can still run around looking for that rare spawn with the unique color.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

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Red Mage has more life in Ultimate than Blue Mage has since 4.5.

I think another pet class, like a beast master class (as opposed to primal/egi/fairy) would be neat... just... not a limited job. :| If it prevents them from doing limited, could like... one pet per expansion that's unique to each area. One for ARR, one for HW, one for SB, and one for SHB
(Granted, if they did that one would hope more pets for SCH...)

Asking for anything limited is bad. Otherwise they’ll start doing limited everything and think people are okay with it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's been a while since I last played FFXI (I quit shortly after completing Rhapsody of Vanadiel), but BST was pretty much the same as ever at level 99. Has it gone through some major changes, recently? How did Matsui mess it up?

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Unless they changed it recently, a few years ago, they shortened the range you can command your pets as BST from 20 yalms to 5 yalms (SMN and PUP's ranges were untouched), which a lot of players didn't like. Even worse, people were having issues commanding their pets while in range (including being right on top of them).