Black magic...kinda sucks

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Originally Posted by Malkria

....So yet again you are either skipping over the point, or ignoring it.

No the core isn't about being a turret more then it's about the momentum; and the 'turret play style' is a byproduct, a symptom, but not the core design itself. If you can still have everything 'explody' about the BLM whether you use the current system or the hypothetical suggestion I made....then no the core design is NOT about being a turret. You can still have a system that rewards staying in one spot and putting out damage while at the same time granting the flexibility to move as necessary. So once again, being a turret is NOT the core of the BLM job, it's about keeping up the momentum of damage. To which, again, you can have both that core and mobility while you enjoy your cake.

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You mean the system which already exists? Aetherial Manipulation, Between the Lines, Triplecast and Swiftcast allow for near instantaneous movement. Additionally, you can use Firestarter procs to move without losing damage. If all else fails, Scathe remains a lost resort option. Your preceding comparison with Monk would make Black Mage stupidly overpowered. On a 2.4 GCD, Greased Lightning III reduces it to 2.04. It wouldn't be unfathomable for Black Mage to broach a <2.0 GCD with a similar mechanic and enough Spell Speed, thus negating any challenge the job has whatsoever. You wouldn't need any of the aforementioned abilities, you'd simply be able to run away flinging spells with virtually no hindrance. What you're proposing is an entirely new job mechanic, not an improvement.

I think Black Mage sucks, but it's because we look like an elemental mage, Thunder, Fire, and Ice, where are the dark and forbidden spells, I hope for the next expansion, we learn something more exciting. I can adjust to the Job, but it's not fun to have to cast thunder, then some ice after some fire.

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Originally Posted by Popotato

God, I wish I could be naive enough to blatantly skip over other people's points and then claim I'm being ignored.

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Oh how I wish I could just put words into other people's mouths and find deeper meaning in their actions then what they state, despite what they keep saying over and over.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Honestly, it sounds like this is not the job for you. You'd be better off with a SMN if you want the kind of mobility you want while dishing out high level damage. If you want a caster with the most mobility, it's either SMN or RDM. BLM is fine as its intended role as a turret.

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First off when I make posts like this it isn't just my own viewpoint I am coming from, and when I make suggestions to changes I try to think how best to do it in a way that preserves the mastery of a job/class. I do this for any game I have suggestions for, and frankly I find it so laughable that everyone seems to know how badly I hate the turret playstyle but me.

Second, like I said, the core of the BLM is momentem, not being a turret. The core of the BLM is:

-Heavy direct DPS with long cast times
-The depletion and refilling of the MP bar (the fire and ice cycle)

The fact that you tend to stay still for those cast times is a side effect, and the only spell that actually tells you to stay in one spot is Ley lines. So does that mean that WHM is a melee caster since both holy and assize need to be cast at melee range? Even then, you can keep the turret aspect in a much better fashion such as with the example I hypothesized on. This means that you could easily not only condense a few of the aspects you like into the actuam mechanics of the job, but this in turn would allow other abilities to be added that might make the job more interesting to play as well. As currently, the job is all about the various levels of fire and ice which leaves the AoE version of said spells kind of lacking.

So no, I don't hate the turret aspect, for all that is good please stop saying that; it's just I strongly feel that the turret aspect AS IT IS NOW does not mesh with the game well AS IT IS NOW. Is the job playable? Yes. Can you make it work? Yes. But neither of those things preclude that the job is well designed or meshes well. Period.

BLM is a turret. Like it or not, that's the job. You have one of the easiest rotations because the challenge of this job is about adapting it to the fight. It's a unique playstyle to this game, and it's completely perfect the way it is.

Blm has a steeper learning curve in being actually good with compared to other jobs in fights. But it's still not that bad.

Most jobs are about focusing 100% on what is happening NOW. "Do I have this proc?" "I need to get this off before this buff falls" ect ect. BLM is more focused on what's going on in 10 seconds than the present. Do I need to slide cast to a new position soon? Can I utilize enough of my leylines if I drop them here and now? Do I use triple for dps or do I need to be running soon? Can I set up a proc to use ogcds without clipping my gcd? Can I hold this proc long enough to use aether manipulation to dodge without wasting a gcd?

Blm is about planning.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You mean the system which already exist? Aetherial Manipulation, Between the Lines, Triplecast and Swiftcast allow for near instantaneous movement. Additionally, you can use Firestarter procs to move without losing damage. If all else fails, Scathe remains a lost resort option. Your preceding comparison with Monk would make Black Mage stupidly overpowered. On a 2.4 GCD, Greased Lightning III reduces it to 2.04. It wouldn't be unfathomable for Black Mage to broach a <2.0 GCD with a similar mechanic and enough Spell Speed, thus negating any challenge the job has whatsoever. You wouldn't need any of the aforementioned abilities, you'd simply be able to run away flinging spells with virtually no hindrance. What you're proposing is an entirely new job mechanic, not an improvement.

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The MNK comparison was meant as an idea to get the concept across, because of course blindly translating greased lighting to the BLM would be stupid. Sorry, I keep forgetting putting forth alternative mechanic ideas on the internet in any game I should have fully developed, tested, and gotten feedback from three major game makers before I can put forth ideas. Thank goodness I didn't go with my original comparison to the striker gear set from the division, or I would have had people pointing out this isn't a shooter to me.

Furthermore aetherial manipulation requires you stop, locate a team member, and select them to use it. Ley lines and between the lines can only be used as often as you can have ley lines active. Swift and triple cast would only really shine for movement once you know the fight well enough to anticipate...which again makes the job less flexible if you are doing new content far behind other jobs. To which you, and others, are saying the optimal way to play the BLM is only when you have played everything else to get it on farm. Because otherwise if you go into new content with a BLM...you will be at a distinct disadvantage to other DPS classes. Because 'knowing a fight well' comes AFTER playing content and/or watching other people play content.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

BLM is a turret. Like it or not, that's the job. You have one of the easiest rotations because the challenge of this job is about adapting it to the fight. It's a unique playstyle to this game, and it's completely perfect the way it is.

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Which is why it had to be 'dumbed down' once already? Because it was perfect the way it was?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

First off when I make posts like this it isn't just my own viewpoint I am coming from

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Just a suggestion, but perhaps only speak for yourself and not others? Other people are free to express their own viewpoint if they are so inclined.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

and when I make suggestions to changes I try to think how best to do it in a way that preserves the mastery of a job/class. I do this for any game I have suggestions for, and frankly I find it so laughable that everyone seems to know how badly I hate the turret playstyle but me.

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From reading this thread, it seems like you don't quite have a master of this job / class. That's ok. I'm getting ready to main BLM, so I'm quite ignorant of the nuances as well. As others have said and I'll support, perhaps the class isn't for you. I'm an Omnitank, and I probably will not play DRK or WAR outside of getting the achievements if I don't have to. I've always preferred PLD and it's playstyle. One of the big draws of FFXIV IMO is that the classes are quite varied, so there are options. I personally hope the classes keep their uniqueness instead of trying to make them similar.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Second, like I said, the core of the BLM is momentem, not being a turret. The core of the BLM is:

-Heavy direct DPS with long cast times
-The depletion and refilling of the MP bar (the fire and ice cycle)

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Can you point me to the official stance of what the core of BLM is? Otherwise, this seems to be more your interpretation.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but coming from a blm that actually does content on a blm, I can assure you that it's fine. It has a steeper learning curve, but you have all the tools you need to keep 100% uptime on any savage fight and still be mobile. If I wanted to play a job where I can just yolo fights and not have to plan ahead for anything, I'd just play bard.

Blm has other issues that have nothing to do with its playstyle.

Even while learning fights, there's methods you can set yourself up for safety, then adapt for optimal play as it progresses.

Honestly, it sounds to me like OP looked up FFLogs or some other DPS ranking thread and said "Oh BLM has the best deeps, that's what I want". Now, they are struggling with the job and it's functions and, of course, that's the job's fault; not theirs. Cause, you know, GOD FORBID, they just aren't good at something!

I feel like we should just let this thread fade into obscurity. None of our points are going through to OP, and he has no valid points himself to offer. We've tickled his delusions enough. This isn't really a discussion, and OP never had any intention of it being a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Just a suggestion, but perhaps only speak for yourself and not others? Other people are free to express their own viewpoint if they are so inclined.

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Well according to a lot of people in this thread everything about the BLM is fine...except if you go back in the forums history you will see a LOT of people who apparently find various aspects of the job needing to be fixed. So...apparently I have a leg to stand on here, and you and your patrization can go somewhere else yourself.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

From reading this thread, it seems like you don't quite have a master of this job / class.

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Ah yes, the "you just don't like it because you don't understand the nuances...so let me get this straight. The job is supposed to be a 'turret' with a very simple rotation, so what nuance am I missing? Just because I don't like the movement of the system does not mean I don't get the 'deep and nuanced aspects of the job'...it means I feel the job can be a turret while not having to rely on GCD gaps for movement.

You can either claim it's a simple turret job with a simple rotation, or you can claim there is a deep nuanced system I'm not getting. But trying to argue both is frankly insulting to both of us, you for not making a better argument and me for your thinking i'm stupid enough to buy said argument.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Can you point me to the official stance of what the core of BLM is? Otherwise, this seems to be more your interpretation.

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Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Honestly, it sounds to me like OP looked up FFLogs or some other DPS ranking thread and said "Oh BLM has the best deeps, that's what I want". Now, they are struggling with the job and it's functions and, of course, that's the job's fault; not theirs. Cause, you know, GOD FORBID, they just aren't good at something!

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Seriously if I had a dollar for every time someone on the internet told me what I apparently thought or felt, I'd be a very rich woman. Because apparently everyone who plays any job ever has to be worried about parsers and youtube ratings. 9.9

Sounds to me that the detractors in this thread can't be bothered to argue why the job is fine as it is when better options exist. But hey, I'm on the internet so I guess it's my fault for thinking people actually try to use logic to convince each other...I keep forgetting the preferred method is shout the other person down as a group, make them a strawman, and put intent and words in front of what they actually are saying. Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.