Housing Suggestions

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Honest to God question here. I have multiple characters on one server (on many servers actually, but lets just stick to my main server for this). My multiple characters are spread across 3 FCs, all of which now have their own house. Which two FCs should lose their house since I'm a member, or should people like me who are members of multiple FCs be forced to pick just 1 FC to be part of? Limiting to only 1 FC house per account per server is fine for not being able to purchase anymore, however, if you're wanting to enforce the rule completely, not just the purchasing aspect, you're opening up a whole new can of worms that I'm pretty sure you haven't considered.

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Do the FC houses by the FC's leader's account.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

A few years ago, there was a glitch where people could add their alts to their friends list. Those people can send themselves mail and add themselves as tenants at their homes. It was not something ever ntended as part of the design of the game, and it definitely is something new players cannot do. Should SE go back and remove this from the old players?

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Yes, SE should do a friend's list sweep and remove them. IMO housing should be used to transfer things between alts.... not the mail system.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Should anything and everything that has ever been grandfathered in be removed and "fixed"?

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Unless we're talking about stuff that's no longer in the game, yes. All game functionality should be consistent among all players.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I really don't understand why you are filled with so much hatred towards anything being grandfathered in.

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Because this board has assumed me to be hateful because some of the people that are part of the problem are fighting against me, and they can't admit they're the issue.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I read a great example in the forums somewhere (I may try to find it later to add the quote), but it basically said in real life if you build a house, you have to build it to the codes and laws as they are right then. If your city/ town/ county/ state/ country/ whoever changes the codes which housing has to be built to, you don't have to rebuild/ fix your house to meet those new codes even though any new houses have to meet those codes. If you try to upgrade your old home, then you have to meet the new codes, but just because the laws (rules) changed, doesn't mean that they should be retro-active and everyone in the town should have to rebuild everything just to meet the new coding. That's how things get grandfathered in, and it's almost always a better system for everyone.

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This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Instead of making entitled statements you should point to the actual issue. Houses are not released faster than they think they are. Plenty of demolition suspensions have happened in game which severely impede the housing rotation they expect. Either deploy housing wards faster or the demolition schedule should continue, regardless of outside affairs. I vote for the former, more houses, more often.

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You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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Originally Posted by Sothis

I'm talking about your incredibly sweeping "take every personal large" statement. Spoiler: I have a single personal home, on a single character, on a single account, which I bought as an open lot. There is nothing ill-gotten about any of it. There is literally no reason for me to be penalized, but you're calling for it anyway because, uh, feelings I guess?

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That large house should never have been allowed to be used as a personal house. It's what Lord of the Rings Online did with their housing system, and none of the issues we have in FFXIV were ever present there. The model works, and it should be brought over here.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

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This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.
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I would like to add to this little part here!
If we went to compare to RL anyway, then we would still have issues as the grandfathering doesn't happen everywhere. Sometimes as the rules change you are forced to change as well within some time governments will give you. Doesn't matter if you had the same house/law for a hundred years, once it changes, it changes for all.

More than talking about server codes, we are talking about a private company. And if they ever decide to not grandfather people who have 60 houses and give them a deadline to choose one and demolish the rest, they can do as they please. Yes, we are the customers, but still, their company, their rules. If they find out that not grandfathering will bring a better view to them, it have some probability of happening. Otherwise, there's not much to fear about

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I really don't understand why you are filled with so much hatred towards anything being grandfathered in.

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Because grandfathering stuff in continues to perpetuate the problem and if the servers are as bad as SE claims, allows some people to put disproportionate and unfair burden on the servers thereby causing other people to have nothing.

When grandfathering doesn't fix the problem, you don't do it. That's why they don't tend to grandfather in many requirements.

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I read a great example in the forums somewhere (I may try to find it later to add the quote), but it basically said in real life if you build a house, you have to build it to the codes and laws as they are right then. If your city/ town/ county/ state/ country/ whoever changes the codes which housing has to be built to, you don't have to rebuild/ fix your house to meet those new codes even though any new houses have to meet those codes. If you try to upgrade your old home, then you have to meet the new codes, but just because the laws (rules) changed, doesn't mean that they should be retro-active and everyone in the town should have to rebuild everything just to meet the new coding. That's how things get grandfathered in, and it's almost always a better system for everyone.

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And when they change the property tax law governing your house, they do NOT typically grandfather you in. You get to pay the new system. If that makes your house more expensive, too bad. Building codes get grandfathered in only because it's extremely impractical to constantly change old buildings.

This is not that. SE needs to bring the hammer down and actually fix this, and if they don't have the capacity to do it with grandfathered people owning 15 houses, then SE needs to choose if those people are more important than the multitudes who are left out entirely. Business wise, the math behind that decision is easy. But, SE has shown nothing but ineptitude on this issue, so expect things to continue to limp along in a broken state for god only knows how long.

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

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Haiiiii <3

I kind of have to agree with the grandfathering being a bad thing.

They should get 30 days notice and told "you get 1 house....and 1 for FC....pick one....and say goodbye to the old ones" - hell full reimbursement would be hard to argue with.

Then you'd get a lot of shots to clean up the situation at that point.

Who knows..maybe SE will actually do that...maybe they want to "wait and see" what happens next when the gate lifts.

See you in the queues Tridus <3 (psst...you should move to adamantoise ;) )

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

They should get 30 days notice and told "you get 1 house....and 1 for FC....pick one....and say goodbye to the old ones" - hell full reimbursement would be hard to argue with.

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And if no choice is made, they lose them all. no need for full refund, same conditions as auto-demo should apply.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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Pre 4.3? Aw, sweetcakes, let me pop that cherry in your ideas for you. 5 more words would change nothing. 4320 houses of now plus 1200 new houses would only be amazing on low pop servers, barely a breather on mid pop and large pop would be left unsatisfied. And nobody wants a grumpy cat taking away indiscriminately.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

And when they change the property tax law governing your house, they do NOT typically grandfather you in. You get to pay the new system. If that makes your house more expensive, too bad. Building codes get grandfathered in only because it's extremely impractical to constantly change old buildings.

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First off, if you want to compare building a house to property taxes, then we should be getting charged some kind of tax on owning the house in game. Building code is yes or no on if you can build/ use whatever you're building/ wanting to build on property. Property tax is if you don't pay X amount of money each year, we take your property away and sell it to make up for what you owe us (kind of like in game demolition). And FYI, it's extremely impractical to change old code for a one time thing like everyone wants with this whole, get rid of all the extra houses.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This is not that. SE needs to bring the hammer down and actually fix this, and if they don't have the capacity to do it with grandfathered people owning 15 houses, then SE needs to choose if those people are more important than the multitudes who are left out entirely. Business wise, the math behind that decision is easy. But, SE has shown nothing but ineptitude on this issue, so expect things to continue to limp along in a broken state for god only knows how long.

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They could actually fix the system and seem to be slowly trying to fix it now (maybe) without bringing "the hammer down" on anyone. Needing to fix a broken housing system by adding more to it (probably their best call would be to make apartments upgradable to have sizes similar to at least a small and medium house) is not the same as take away this drop in the bucket of extra houses people own. 100-200 extra houses per server will not fix the housing crisis in the game.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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So, you want people to have to choose between having a personal house and being part of an FC with a house? That's gonna go over real well. I mean, it would probably fix the housing crisis, since people would basically be forced into only using FC houses, but yeah, not gonna make people happy. Would probably lose lots of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Do the FC houses by the FC's leader's account.

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If the FC leader is inactive for 35 days, the FC leadership gets passed on to another person. Because of this, every person in the FC has the potential to inherit the FC and the FC house. That's why the rule exists the way it does currently. By only using the leader's account, you are creating problems down the line with your refusal to let anyone be grandfathered into anything.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yes, SE should do a friend's list sweep and remove them. IMO housing should be used to transfer things between alts.... not the mail system.

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The only items you can transfer via housing are housing items. How in the world do you want people to transfer stuff between alts via housing? Also, alts cannot access anything in the house of another character on the same account unless they are on the other character's friends list and have been added as a tenant at the house. So, by removing them from the friends list, you are removing whatever access they had to transfer things via housing.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Unless we're talking about stuff that's no longer in the game, yes. All game functionality should be consistent among all players.

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There have been quite a few times where they fixed UI glitches and such that allowed for things like furniture to be placed in certain areas that were not intended. Sometimes players can find a new way to glitch items, sometimes they cannot. Good luck writing code to figure out which items are placed in ways where they could still be glitched there and which items are not. Talk about a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.

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Your "bits on a server" are houses though. Using examples from real life can help explain why things should be grandfathered in, you know besides the obvious one of what a waste of resources it would be to write code for a one time event.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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We currently have 18 wards for a total of 4320 houses per server. Balmung still has over 13k active players. In order to give everyone that wants a house on Balmung, they would probably need to have about 60+ wards in the game. Most of the large servers probably need about 50 or so wards. With the smallest servers probably needing probably about 30 wards. However, if they actually do allow for small, medium, and large apartments (especially if people can have access to gardening either in their apartment or elsewhere in the game), then those numbers would probably go down a lot (since there are 180 apartments per ward). By most pre-4.2 estimates, forcing a release of all the extra homes players own would give about 100-200 houses per server. When there are currently enough houses for not even 1/3 of a server to have a house, putting 100-200 houses back on the market is barely a drop in the bucket. It's not a solution. It's giving into an angry mob and not helping the situation at all.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That large house should never have been allowed to be used as a personal house. It's what Lord of the Rings Online did with their housing system, and none of the issues we have in FFXIV were ever present there. The model works, and it should be brought over here.

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There are plenty of games with tons of different housing models that work. Many allow players to buy whatever size house they can afford. And just because something worked well in one game does not mean it will work well in another game. Especially if it's a drastic change from how the game is currently (and taking away all personal large houses would be a drastic change).

Now that I have daily posts again (God, this limit is arbitrary...)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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Sorry, Tridus. I have to disagree with you on this. I don't want to have to be forced to choose between having a personal house to call my own and being in a Free Company with my friends. This decision would literally make me choose one or the other, and I disagree with ultimatums of this sort. Ultimately, I would lose out on my personal because I'm the master of my FC. In the situation of my friends, they would have to give up their personal that they lawfully obtained/earned (because they are in an FC with a house), or leave that FC to keep their personal house. Why force people into a decision like that?

People wouldn't need to make shell FCs for their alts if personal housing allowed all alts on that server to share and access its features. But I still would not like the idea of basically having to give up my personal to be in an FC with my friends, or to give up being in an FC with my friends for a personal house. I don't think anyone would like having to make a decision like this--whether they're an FC master or just a member.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No FC/personal split.

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I was with you until here. FC and Personal are not one and the same. Why should a FC leader be forced to choose between decorating a house uniquely their own, with their preferred tastes, and decorating one that more benefits everyone in a larger group? The only way I could potentially support such a restriction is if Apartments were overhauled to allow for multiple sizes, equivalent garden space and etc. Otherwise, you're needlessly punishing a FC leader.

Edit: If you intended it the way Hyomin interpreted, I vehemently disagree. Such a restriction essentially robs people of either being apart of an FC or ever owning a house. The overwhelming majority of members get little say in FC decor. So they just "make do" with nothing. Hardly a fair compromise.

Or instead of arguing for half measures that hurt part of the community, people could instead argue for SE to fix housing by either releasing enough wards or implementing instance housing. That is the ONLY solution where someone doesn't get hurt.