Yoshi-P on Tenacity

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The OF has gone so far down the rabbit hole I can't even tell if this is a joke post. ; _ ;

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Some people really just don't care about playing well. They have a vision and want to play by that vision.

It's a mindset that works great in single-player RPG's, but not so well in MMO's.

And we know, mathematically, what optimal play looks like once the savage raids start getting farmed. That's also a hard thing for people to swallow.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

To me it seems that with current gear and melds the max amount of Tenacity we can have is a 3-5% boost/ mitigation making it almost as effective a half a rampart with 100% up time. It it really shows its weight as it scales, and presuming we continue to be able to add significant amounts via melding, it could be interesting. Numerically though, they have to be careful of how it scales so that it doesn't become pointless to stack in future, or ultimately over powerful.

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You can get 5% right now with barely any melding at all. Around 1500 tenacity you'll be right at 5%. Easily attainable just through gear.

As for DH ... it's the best scaling stat for every non healer right now. While tanks won't be seeing higher numbers there, it is still the best stat to take. We get enough Crit, Det, and (lol) Skill Speed from gear. And yes any tank going full skill speed, and I have seen some, is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

You can get 5% right now with barely any melding at all. Around 1500 tenacity you'll be right at 5%. Easily attainable just through gear.

As for DH ... it's the best scaling stat for every non healer right now. While tanks won't be seeing higher numbers there, it is still the best stat to take. We get enough Crit, Det, and (lol) Skill Speed from gear. And yes any tank going full skill speed, and I have seen some, is laughable.

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Tenacity is 180-220 per 1% damage increase and mitigation, unless more was found out, wearing full fending gear gives you a 5% right off the bat. An additional 520 tenacity is like 2% increase.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time.

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I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

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Originally Posted by Aedria

tanks should stay to their roles as tanks and quit trying to be dps. they should cap their dex which increase dodge ability and the new tenacity generates aggro better than strength ever did and theyn should stop stacking crit and trying to be dps they need to focus on making heals job easier not trying to pull everything around then blame a healer because they are squishy with no det to make the heals work better for them. if they want to dps then go get a dps class. Don't try and whine when you cant be both with one class. I play a tank and have no problem holding agro and my healers have no problem keeping me healed. if your routines are correct and you have your gears set to play tank instead of being a trying to play dps then all would be better in game. leave the dps to the ones that play a dps class.

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Enjoy never clearing any relevant Savage content. The game literally REQUIRES you to maximize damage as a tank (and as a healer) in order to clear content at its release. Did you ever think how much damage you're "mitigating" by killing something minutes faster? I think most high-level healers will very much appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Some people really just don't care about playing well. They have a vision and want to play by that vision.

It's a mindset that works great in single-player RPG's, but not so well in MMO's.

And we know, mathematically, what optimal play looks like once the savage raids start getting farmed. That's also a hard thing for people to swallow.

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Apparently what's hard to swallow is that farm status means "optimal play" makes almost no difference.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

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Maximizing both the tanks and the healers' dps is nowhere near as easy as turtle tanking or healing a turtle tank. 12k additional hp, 20% passive mitigation or 25% passive hp boost and access to 20% mitigation with 40%+ uptime give you a lot of room for errors both on the tanks' side and on the healers' side. If you think the difference is small you're welcome to try getting susano/lakshmi run in full str gear and 100% dps stance uptime while allowing your healers to get 95% percentile dps.

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Apparently what's hard to swallow is that farm status means "optimal play" makes almost no difference.

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Optimal play only comes into discussion if your group is interested in doing speedkills or some unusual composition runs. For your usual weekly clears you'd probably not take risky optimizations since wiping would just make you spend more time than slower clears.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

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Lol@raging over his own ignorance.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

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There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

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Look, I never said it was good design that we're even allowed to use last expansion's dps accs or ignore our tank stances completely, or that dps optimization is mandatory to clear. As I mentioned in my reply to dacien, optimization is mostly for speedkills, it's not the norm even for your weekly farms. I just don't get how you could call it "easy" or not much harder than runs with turtle tanks if you've never even attempted it.

I won't insult you or call you bad tank simply because you don't do speedkills or optimize tank/group dps, but I can't say I like it when someone who never does speedkills say that it's easy, considering the amount of effort and time people put into figuring out those optimal rotations and strategies. Same thing for people saying tanking in full slaying accs and 0 tank stance uptime is easy without even trying it. If you haven't even tried it you don't even know if you can do it lol. How do you know that you'd be any different from those "bad" tanks the forums complain about, those "meta sheeps" who put on slaying gear, pull in dps stance and get mashed by a tank buster 10 sec into the pull. Yeah sure they're probably biting more than what they can chew, but at least they have tried and you haven't. They now know how hard/easy it is, you don't.