Are role actions a nerf?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you need to check the entire PvP portion of the Live Letter.



all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

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I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower , it works fine but angling is alot work than a cone aoe its gone, bloodbath was a thing is gone, shield swipe on pali gone, re-phrasal on drk cross role now, mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk, the new things for tanks none of them are self heals, whm basicly has to rebuy their same skills they already had again, these changes didnt benefit anyone but new players coming in.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

shield swipe on pali gone

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says who?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk

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good? that makes the jobs more distinct from each other, both of those jobs don't need either of those.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I'm looking forward to using the rescue ability. I've wanted this sort of ability for a long long time. So many times I could've saved people from titan's landslides or Sophia's scale tips had I had it. I just hope people won't ruin it for those of us who will actually use it as intended.

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Exactly, in other games that have a similar skill, I found it very useful in some situations and saved quite a few fights from wipes because the tank or dps had lagged out and not moved to a protected location mechanic... Can even be used as a sort of quasi training tool.
It can only be used in group, to group members, so cant be trolled with out in the world.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower , it works fine but angling is alot work than a cone aoe its gone, bloodbath was a thing is gone, shield swipe on pali gone, re-phrasal on drk cross role now, mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk, the new things for tanks none of them are self heals, whm basicly has to rebuy their same skills they already had again, these changes didnt benefit anyone but new players coming in.

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SCH and SMN are losing Virus and Eye For An Eye
WHM is losing Esuna, Protect, Cleric Stance
BLM is losing Swiftcast, Surecast, and Apocastasis
BRD is losing Swiftsong and Quelling Strikes
WAR is losing Bloodbath
MNK is losing Second Wind
DRG is losing Low Kick and Invigorate
NIN is losing Goad
PLD is losing Provoke, Convalesence, Rampart, Awareness
DRK is losing Low Blow and Reprisal
MCH is losing all 3 of its OGCD CCs

Thats everything I can remember that is confirmed to be moved to XRS

Then theres some other probabilities based what is there.
AST is likely losing Exalted Detriment
SCH is likely losing Leeches
WAR is likely losing Brutal Swing and Storm's Path (10% DMG Reduc one not the Slash never remember which is Eye which is Path just that Slash = Pink, -DMG = Teal)
PLD is likely losing Spirits Within

And skills that were notably missing that may be gone or worked into new job mechanics or other skills.
MNK missing given Inner Focus and Mantra
WAR missing given Mercy Stroke
WHM missing given Stoneskin
DRG missing given Blood for Blood
BRD missing given Hawk Eye and Raging Strikes

Then the trend of XCs that are dmg or simple core skills are gone from the cross system but likely still nearly unchanged on the core class like
WHM given Cure 1
ACN/SCH/SMN given Physick and Bio 1
BLM given Blizzard 2
WAR/PLD given Step 2 Enmity Generators

Take a bit and look at the WHOLE picture we have so far, some are easy to explain like BRD Hawkeye with accuracy being gone its just a 15% dex buff, BLM/SMN are losing nothing here. Cleric Stances primary funtion of swapping MND with INT is now detrimental and thus removed given that MND affects healer dmg. Stoneskin may be WHM unique again as part of the lilies mechanic and less of a boring pre fight start-up or rez sickness health buffer.

And I'm sure as more details come out you gunna notice a lot of other things having been moved around. So take a sec breathe, things are likely far less ominous than it seems when your nose is touching the screen just below you main jobs change notes.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

good? that makes the jobs more distinct from each other, both of those jobs don't need either of those.

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I don't agree. I used it on MNK. It had decent potency and was an extra oGCD skill to use.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower

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Wait a second. Wait just a dang second. I totally forgot about Flash. I've taken it for granted that I've just had it. I mean, WAR doesn't necessarily need it, but it was really good for being omni-directional It's especially useful when extra adds spawn for whatever reason. It was also useful when I ran low on TP.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

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The problem I see with that is those "skills every role should have" are non-choices. You take them, no ifs ands or buts about it. So, while I can't speak for any other healer, I personally feel compelled to always take Swiftcast for instant res, Protect to buff my groups, Esuna to remove any debuffs, Lucid Dream for mp management, and if that unknown skill using that recolored Divine Seal icon turns out to be Divine Seal, I'm gonna feel compelled to take that too leaving me with no choices at all for alternatives.

Now in a static where you and your co-healer can coordinate, sure you're going to have more wiggle room, but I'm not the type of person who likes to constantly swap skills. I didn't like it with WoW's talents and that hasn't changed. I pick the skills I feel I need for all the content I engage in and rarely if ever change them. Unfortunately its looking like all my "choices" have been made for me.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I don't agree. I used it on MNK. It had decent potency and was an extra oGCD skill to use.

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Considering the amount of change that the jobs are going through, you have the wrong mentality towards this. You are basically going to be relearning your job, so it's absence isnt all that relvant. If they took it out mid heavensward I would agree, but you are getting a new toolkit with new cool stuff to use.

Personally I think this whole change is going to backfire hilariously.

I mean, think about it: SE has stated they want to (a) reduce button bloat, and (b) make the system more accessible / usable for casual players. Laudable goals, both, assuming they can be effectively achieved. But, it is arguable the nature of the role-based system might worsen both. Consider:

1.) Role-based skills are broad enough that it appears frequent swapping between skill combinations is encouraged. This means that users must integrate most or all of the Role-based skills onto their hotbars, rather than just the five I'd use now, all of which are relatively static.

2.) Role-based skills being flexible and guaranteed means the floodgates will be opened for players being told how to play. Think that situation is bad now? Wait until tanks start bitching at healers for not having Esuna selected. Wait until people wipe because the tank forgot to respec from a damage-oriented setup they were using for solo'ing. This isn't going to lead to a friendlier environment for casual or forgetful players.

Don't get me wrong, I think the role-based skill system is potentially a good idea - but it doesn't fix the problem. They've essentially removed the need to level other jobs, but shifted even MORE crucial abilities into optional skills. Healers in 3.x need to have Swiftcast, but now they need to make damned sure they've selected Esuna, too - and heaven help them if they don't. This would have worked a hell of a lot better if the role-based skills were optional things that gave non-crucial, but nonetheless useful, abilities. They should have behaved like Merit Point abilities in FFXI. Hell, they could have even allowed for the selection of a role-based Trait or two, something powerful, so people could really customize how their class felt. Instead, they've worsened almost all the problems of the cross-class system; the only thing they fixed (and it's debatable if this is a good thing or not) is the fact that players no longer have to level separate jobs they might not be interested in.

Truly a missed opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

-snip-

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According to Yoshi-P said, monk rotation hasn't changed that much. And someone said in the Reddit Discord that monk rotation was fine they just needed utility. Of course gameplay will change slightly (especially with The Forbidden Chakra) and my opener will change, but I actually don't think Monk will be that much relearning.

Besides its potency, it was a decent heal as well while soloing. Bloodbath's addition doesn't change anything because Monks already had Bloodbath as a cross class skill. My point is they took away something useful.

The main problem with the cross role system is they have to put something in the bucket of tank healer or dps, but not all the abilities are clear cut as that.