WoW Legion uses FFXI style for relics but FFXIV does not?

I actually prefer to do battle for my relic then to gather ingredients for the NPC crafter, as much as I like the characters.

Relic is the only weapon we can customize to such an extent (Stats), that is a large benefit and a driving force behind the people who smash it out in 3 days after release. It's nice that people who can only play an hour a night can chip away at the weapon, sure they wont get it for 2 months but they are not in it for the bragging rights.

Personally, while I feel the timing could be improved; I use the nerfs as a way to level my second relic, because its a lot of effort to have 2 with the amount of free time I have/donthave

I'm subbed to both games so i'll throw my 2 cents into the Relic in FF XIV since I have one on my Drk and did Zeta so i'll talk about why I don't like the relic the way it is now and why WoWs is very interesting and fresh. As for FF XI I never played it so I can't comment on that I'm only going to comment on the steps of relic > now and how they've made me, a long time player since 2.0 dislike relic and it's formula.

FF XIV: When I first played in 2.0 I LOVED getting my Curtana and Holy Shield on my Paladin as I used to play that in WoW, it was a lot of fun getting to do all the quests, gather all the items, fight the primals etc. It reminded me a little of WoW when you had to do the old world quests on some classes like Hunter for example where you had to find and fight 3 demon lords under certain circumstances. Fast forward into Atma and...well it wasn't epic or fun I spent 2 days up straight and got 9 Atmas and took a 5 hour sleep, woke up, farmed more, got them all done on the 3rd day and I felt underwhelmed as my Curtana Zenith/Holy Shield Zenith lost its glow and that was it?

Next step comes out, Animus step this one I really did not like as it required A LOT of AFKing for FATEs and I REALLY hated that made me start to question should I even bother or buckle down or just raid Coil and get our clear for T9 . Finish Animus but it drained me mentally and I kept thinking to myself "it'll get better and more epic just gotta wait!" because I was still enjoying the game. Novus comes out and...i'm just appalled with the RNG I mean RNG where an item can BREAK why? Just why? I spent countless nights with my Whm friend just spirit bonding it got old after 10 minutes and the daily maps were no better as it was just as tedious.

Nexus comes out and it was not that bad, I say that as it's "not bad" but it allowed me to play the game (do roulettes, trials/mount farming, 24 mans) which is a ridiculous route to go with a weapon truth be told it was deceptive it was rewarding joe shmoe a super powerful item for just playing the game. Uh okay? There's no epicness at this point it's just "play the game you'll get it" kind of mentality which at that point I didn't even bother rushing it. The next part for the Zodiac can just burn in hell, those items costed WAY too much so I could write a whole paragraph bout that but i'm good. Lastly the final part wasn't bad at all but left a bad taste in my mouth it was almost like SE was giving away the last part of your relic as a way of saying "sorry you had to do tedious work! Enjoy!". Yeah the weapon looked cool but I found myself just not happy at all, which is why I had no qualms with throwing it away in HW for the 3.0 relic.

As for the 3.0 quest i'll keep it short: it's tedious, re skinned atma, just a carrot on a stick to keep the average player engaged into thinking that their getting somewhere when you're just playing the game. I was tired of it and i'm glad it got a nerf this patch because if the relics are just time sinks then let them sink like the Titanic there's nothing interesting about the questline and the weapons aren't a compliment to each other like they were in ARR.

Legion: Now let's talk about the beast that is WoW and their Artifact weapons, they just came out and after playing like a madman I can say that it's got a lot more depth then what FF XIV has to offer with their weapons. It's not just a weapon it's the foundation of your character and how your character grows and continues to grow, and none of the quests (besides the 8-12 hr Class Hall quests) are pointless they're all how you as a player are in control of your own champions commanding your own force against the demon forces of the Legion. It's bloody brilliant how they chose to make your character stronger as it's like a Sphere Grid from FF-X but you spend Artifact power in order to reach the nodes with branching pathways. Sure people will argue there's an optimal way to spend them, but since we're so early in the expansion you can go wherever you like and can refund your Artifact power for free which is amazing. These nodes give you things like increases dmg of X ability by 1/2/3% or a node that gives a unique secondary ability to a defensive/offensive ability, and an elite node that is super powerful and changes your character dramatically. FF 14 relic weapons should have been this but sadly they are not, the relics are just stat sticks that may or may not have a glow whereas WoW has multiple skins for your weapon and different models now that's intuitive.

In closing: Sorry for the long wall of text I love both games dearly as WoW was my first ever MMO and FF 14 is the game I play with my good friends on my server and always have a blast with them these are just my honest opinions on how drastically different Relic VS Artifact weapons are WoWs is just more diversified and engaging where FF XIV's is just...there. If FF XIV would take risks and make their relics more engaging and challenging then people would actually care about them but for now they're just time diversions to make you think you're achieving something when in reality it's just busywork that anyone can do with an hour or 2 of their time to accomplish. The thing is SE can't make players grind to get a relic unless they drastically change their formula and they've already stated that 4.0 is going to be much of the same of what we have, that being said relic will not be a man part of your character unlike WoW's which is integrated into their formula now. As it stands you don't have to do relic which is fine, keep it the way it is or change FF XIV and take some risks. As a long time player I'm tired of how safe the formula is getting.

With all respect if WoW was your first MMORPG and you have no FFXI experience I cannot expect you to understand what I mean.

A relic on FFXI was one of the most powerful weapons you can get it was something rewarding challenging and time consuming.

It never was useless instead it continued to grow you. We have so many weapon choices on FFXIV that are equally as powerful in ilvl standards and the relic should have been a grind fest and continued to be a reward not a mistake and a waste of your time and effort.

New MMORPG generation or not you don't have to adapt to exactly everything the market does. You can introduce people to something old school.

I'm not sure if the playerbase is a majority or a minority of FFXIV but if the majority is the newer consumer market of MMORPG players it would have been really refreshing if they had to work hard for something.

Yoshi Ps latest comment about the relic that its a casual route is so disrespectful towards the playersbase who understand how powerful and rewarding a relic should actually be.

If I really wanted an alternative I could use the esoterics tomes palace of the dead or even lore tomes why most people get exactly everything as a handout?

Can't just one lousy thing in this entire game just be something thats worth an acheivement/time/gil/investment that can distance players from eachother and give some sort of competition through dedication and time?

There are so many people that have families and job and still find time for FFXIV I don't really buy the whole I don't have enough time excuse.

What I do beleive is the newer generation is just a bunch of lazy crybaby gamers who want everything as a handout and don't want to grind for anything it seems.

There are so many other MMORPGs out there that provide these handouts and are pretty much on a pay to win level.

Final fantasy XIV does not have to go this path but change can only come from the playerbase.

I still beleive that certain things in FFXIV should be accomplished during the same conditions and circumstances as everyone to acheive.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That being said, I feel FFXIV's mistake isn't your relic being replaced each expansion, but rather the devs cannot seem to balance between an enormous grind or challenge. The former is boring; the latter too difficult.

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What I don't understand is why they don't just do both.

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

A FATE gives 50
An old HW dungeon gives 100
An "expert" dungeon gives 200
a 24 man raid gives 500
An old HW extreme primal gives 700
A current Extreme Primal gives 1000
An ilvl synced extreme primal gives 5000
A current raid boss gives 10,000

Instead it's "we want to subsidize the Duty Finder so go do a trivial thing you've already done a hundred times"

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

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Sounds like the light grinding for the 2.0 relic, in which case people will do exactly what they did then..spam the easiest content to get their results. I did Garuda so many times...then I gave up and just..played. It's hard to find that balance, though your example going back to the lights is a good one. It doesn't make you do X-Content 100 times, instead it lets you spread it out. Though the player-base will still find the quickest route and grind it..going back to the feeling of it being a grind chore. Still gave an up-vote though!

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

A relic on FFXI was one of the most powerful weapons you can get it was something rewarding challenging and time consuming...

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It sure was, I just lucked out on SMN because I didn't need that horrid thing..instead I needed every elemental staff....okay so my grind was different lol. What was nice though was that you didn't really NEED it to complete content. As a Bard also it was always asked if I had the relic, and I would say no. Was I going to get it? No, I was so far back in line to get help getting it..no need. Yet I sang in sea & sky no problem.

The big difference between if they did the grind with the FFXIV relics vs the FFXI relics is the rewards. The game isn't set up currently to do that and to add it into one item would be seen as unfair for some. I'm not disagreeing that if you put more time and effort into the game you should have something to show for it. Just that we don't, even our AF is just iLV and glamour. We have no additional effects to them, but that might just be the answer. Though implementing that would be a big overhaul, with rebalancing issues on jobs / gear etc...

To get that feel back from XI days, there's going to have to be a bit more depth and it will not be able to be just on the relics. There have been multiple threads on creating a skill tree or ability content like FF9, where you had it on gear and could learn it permanently, then place it on other pieces. You're right though I just don't think it will happen with all the things that need to change. Yet, I've been wrong before! We all have, I would welcome be being wrong in this case. When I heard of relics I was thinking it's going to be awesome, and when I got my first I was happy. Then I realized they weren't so special...they are for casual content to make casuals like myself feel good. It's more of a "just play the game, you'll get there", and the bait would make people play a bit every day to get it. Then others will grind it out until they hate life, but that's more about the player and the "need it now!" complex.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

It's easy to solve light's problems though

1) put a cooldown on how often you can get light from specific content. Can't get Garuda light more than once per day or 3 days or whatever.
2) drastically increase rewards for harder content. This was my biggest problem with light. Going out and doing second coil was worth like 3 Garudas when 2nd coil was like forty times harder...

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Could work, but wasn't the point of it not to force anyone to grind certain content? Now, you're forcing people in a sense to do things they don't want to do. It's a good idea, just know that there is no 100% perfect solution. When you fix something you break something else. So now we would have two options of implementing the lights.

The first one would be like you originally said, let everything give it and people can play as they please. On the good side, I don't have to grind the same content, I can do as I please. On the other hand, the player base will find a way that works for them, forcing you to join in..in the end you're most likely grinding the same content over and over because people want it now. Good intentions, players will take it the other route. Now content is not gated behind time in the game, but time of the player. They will grind, be burned out..and complain of how horrible it was while at the same time wanting new content.

Then this one. Pro to it is that there is no "quickest route!" system, forcing players to cycle through other things rather than spam mode in one content. I'm forced to get better and complete content new to me. That would help the skill level in some way definitely. On the other hand, now you're doing the same thing S.E. is doing rather than running all these dungeons multiple times for their key item, you're asking them to run it X amount of times a day to get these lights. We're now forcing users to do content they don't want to do and doing it multiple times. Also, after a player is done running a dungeon or harder content so many times they will jump to the next one because they need to do it within a days period to get the most out of their lights. So now those who are trying to do Garuda, will have a tougher time due to the majority already being passed that and on Alexanders. There would be a large boost to party finders, doing a specific route of fights to get their lights in daily and then done. While those who don't have the time or can't manage to find a team to do their exact fights, will have a much harder time and the progress will end up being huge in the end.

Also, some will look at it as a way of gating the progress of it. If you can only fit in X amount of lights per day at the very most it should take you X days to do it. It's basically what they're doing with the tomes..and when they switch to new ones. The trade in seems awesome but in the end we know it makes very little difference.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, in fact both of your solutions do have their good side. Though you need to weigh in the bad as well, and decide which is best for the players. Also remember in the end, the players are the one thing we can't patch to make better.

I'd actually be okay with either methods, if the reward was good enough. I am like you 3.0 I am not stressing over because I realize, it doesn't hold the 1.0 feeling. Heck we don't even go into dungeons anymore to get our AF! I feel it's not so much about how we obtain the items, but it's what we obtain. There are no extra boosts to our jobs from the relic gear or any gear that makes you go nuts over.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Sounds like the light grinding for the 2.0 relic

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It's easy to solve light's problems though

1) put a cooldown on how often you can get light from specific content. Can't get Garuda light more than once per day or 3 days or whatever.
2) drastically increase rewards for harder content. This was my biggest problem with light. Going out and doing second coil was worth like 3 Garudas when 2nd coil was like forty times harder.

Those two things would force diversity, pace the content decently, and maybe entice people to go out and do stuff that's a little bit harder. Really, though, unless they make new content for the quest, it's always going to be boring. I think forcing ilvl sync is a decent lazy dev solution, because almost nobody has ever run a max level dungeon in minimum ilvl gear. Everyone already overgears them with tomestone stuff when they come out.

I stopped doing the relic in 3.0 when I realized the quest would never be good again. I kept doing it in 2.x for some reason - maybe just fond memories from the 1.x relic? Even the 2.0 initial quest was a billion times better than the garbage we get now, though. It's really a shame.

Most people I know don't like joining an MMO already in progress, as they dont want to play "Catch up" with the rest of the player base. (Which I have to try to convince them it's not an issue, but they refuse to believe it.)

The few friends who don't care about that, have already started the game.

I could see this being a partial reason why.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

There are no extra boosts to our jobs from the relic gear or any gear that makes you go nuts over.

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Well, really, there shouldn't be - not with how they are now. Raid weapons take more time and effort than relics and there's nothing special about them.

As for the rest of that stuff, the idea was for both "solutions" to be active at the same time - lockout on each piece of content + drastically higher rewards for harder stuff. Basically, you can work on it a little bit every day, do a bunch of different stuff, or do a few really hard things. No matter what you do some dickhead on the forums is going to complain, but that guy just wants his weapon because it'll look cute on his Mi'qote waifu anyway.

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

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Sure what the development team said was offensive, but if you think FFXI's relic system would work in this game, then you may be as naive as they are.

FFXIV's structure is simply not built for FFXI's relic system, it is simple as that. How do you accommodate people jumping into the game? It is hard enough catching up on the current structure. How the relic chain is done is fine, it is how they scale the difficulty is what the issue is.

It is fine if the relic is catered to casual players. What is a problem is that the team doesn't believe that casual players cannot take a little challenge. It only tests your patience in waiting than skill in the game.

The team instead of motivating players to challenge themselves, are breeding and catering to players who do not feel compelled to get better at the game.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well, really, there shouldn't be - not with how they are now. Raid weapons take more time and effort than relics and there's nothing special about them...

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That's another thing, even the raid weapons have nothing special about them, which does make me wonder if it was that much of a challenge would the reward really be worth it? You should be rewarded because you took on harder content over myself, but what would there be? Adding a bit higher ilv and stats would only go so far. You could make it look good, but next patch a new item comes out and you glamour over it. That's true, someone will always complain. What the team has to do is will it upset the vocal minority that will express on the forums but still pay? Or the silent majority that will just quit? I can't say, that's why I don't have any successful games under my belt.

I also have nothing to loose if I stick to a suggestion that could really turn for the worse. That's half of why I go "that's good!" "eh but consider this..." I know for myself, if I just think something is good then I am missing something since it's off balancing something else bad. Its a balance to give challenge vs reward, though I'll admit, I'd much rather do the lights and go "Okay, I can't just do Garuda 500 times..I'll do Alexander floors today.." so I would be fine with a light system that reduced the rewards after X amount of time, then again I'm a filthy casual. lol.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It is fine if the relic is catered to casual players. What is a problem is that the team doesn't believe that casual players cannot take a little challenge. It only tests your patience in waiting than skill in the game. The team instead of motivating players to challenge themselves, are breeding and catering to players who do not feel compelled to get better at the game.

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I feel that's not just from the relic quest but the game in general. You can go so far up in levels without having to do proper or even decent rotations, little mechanics other than dodging. You're right that the FFXI system can't fit into the FFXIV world, the length of it would be insane and no where near the satisfaction or reward without having to add something to the game like new content.