The completely REASONABLE changes to the Dark Knight job thread

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Originally Posted by Praesul

The tooltip says it has increased enmity, regardless of combo or dark arts. The tooltip then says that it gets increased enmity when used with dark arts.

So yes, it has a modifier even without dark arts. Unless I'm misunderstanding you?

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I'm wondering if both modifiers are the same and if they're the same as PLD/WAR (x3 isn't it? for Butcher's Block and Rage of Halone?), I'm rusty on modifiers

If they are same and equal to PLD/WAR, a non combo'd Power Slash with Dark Arts buff would be on par with combo'd vanilla (?)

No Combo but with Dark Arts
Dark Arts Enmity modifier + WS modifier + 100 Potency

VS

No Dark Arts but Combo'd (DRK/PLD/WAR potencies)
WS Modifier + 300/260/280 Potency

Either I'm totally blind-siding on an aspect of the maths, or DA's Enmity modifier just isn't that good, cuz it doesn't feel all that powerful in practice.

If they're both x3, wouldn't it be

DRK No Combo but DA buff
(100 x 3 x 3) = 900 enmity

PLD Combo'd
(260 x 3) = 780 enmity

WAR Combo'd
(280 x 3) = 840 enmity

Doesn't that seem a little 'too good?'

It can't be that high. It's more realistically a 1.5 or 1.25 multiplier. Anything more is too OP.

This would be nice to know in order to understand the "should/shouldn't" priorities of using Dark Arts buff on a Power Slash in our opener or for snap aggro on adds situations.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

I'm very interested because the enmity state is going to make some things clearer.
It says Dark arts combo potency which to me meant the boost is only when in a combo, however its still odd to ascertain how potent this is?
I've done attempts where its say DA combo'd Power slash, then I'm trying to see how many SE rotations I can get in before aggro drops. I don't feel to impressed by it atm.

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^Precisely this

(I suppose the WS enmity modifier could be lower than BB's and RoH's too, that would make the Dark Arts buff more of a necessity opposed to a luxury)

What I'd really love to see if a consistent out of combat MP refresh rate, even with Darkside up. It's a pain in the ass having to wait 20 seconds for your MP to go up about 10%. And even if you take Darkside off, let your MP refresh, then put it back on, there will still be a gap present that takes its sweet time to recharge.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

On the contrary dark dance does. What you're discussing is the specific part of Pld's shield. Dark dance is straight out comparable to Bulwark itself *and* has a third of its cooldown. This is splitting hairs as PLD gets extra mileage in general from having a shield.

Dont confuse this for a claim for Parrys potency nor Evasions, it isn't. It's the reality of Dark dance relative to Bullwark where you have 30% + 20% on a third of the cooldown.

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Yeah, you can compare Dark Dance to Bulwark and conclude that Dark Dance is an absolutely awful cooldown. What you need is reliability, not a short cooldown time, and Dark Dance can never be relied on since the chance is so low.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Delirium does what its supposed to do, if you have a monk you don't need to use it. If I have a Ninja who insists on keeping his Dancing edge up, then I don't need to Storms eye and just throw in another BB.

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Difference is, if the Monk isn't keeping Dragon Kick up, he's reducing his own damage. Dragon Kick doesn't only reduce the targets Int like Delirium does, it also reduces their blunt resistance. There is 0 reason Dragon Kick should ever not be on the boss, unless for whatever reason, the Monk cant hit it.

Delirium is merely an Int down, which is completely over-shined by Dragon Kicks constant application, if you have a Monk.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Difference is, if the Monk isn't keeping Dragon Kick up, he's reducing his own damage. Dragon Kick doesn't only reduce the targets Int like Delirium does, it also reduces their blunt resistance. There is 0 reason Dragon Kick should ever not be on the boss, unless for whatever reason, the Monk cant hit it.

Delirium is merely an Int down, which is completely over-shined by Dragon Kicks constant application, if you have a Monk.

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Your difference is that a Drk loses nothing if a Monk applies the buff. A ninja also loses nothing if a War applies slashing buff. This isn't a strike against the class as nothing plays to their detriment is a monk is Dragon Kicking as Delirium does not overwrite it.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Paladin's don't "double dip" block directly reduces the effectiveness of parry. Using your 30% block and 20% parry the paladin would actually have 14% parry. With Bulwark up that same paladin would have 90% block and 2% parry. You can't parry an attack you blocked, it is still solid mitigation, but not double dipping.

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This still seems like double dipping to me. Even using your numbers here, the 30% block rate + effective 14% parry rate for PLD still = 44% to mitigate an attack between 20-30% of the original damage. A DRK wearing the same equipment with the exception of a shield is only 20%. I understand where the percentage calculations come from but not your definition of double dipping. I'm strictly talking about base mitigation so not considering how extraneous factors like Bulwark or Dark Dance come into play.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Your difference is that a Drk loses nothing if a Monk applies the buff. A ninja also loses nothing if a War applies slashing buff. This isn't a strike against the class as nothing plays to their detriment is a monk is Dragon Kicking as Delirium does not overwrite it.

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The DRK loses nothing, but it also brings nothing to the raid group utility with this setup. As OT it can't apply Reprisal nor Delirium with MNK in the group. At that point why would the group not consider using WAR in its stead for a reliable -10% damage taken with Storm's Path (if PLD MT), or PLD for strength debuff and a boatload of other utility in Clemency, Stoneskin, Divine Will, etc (assuming WAR MT). That's the lack of synergy I was wanting to a address with my suggestion in the OP.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Change the Dark Arts buff for Dark Dance so it's +EVA for everyone in a 7y radius.

Change the Dark Arts buff for Dark Mind so it's +15% Magical Resistance for everyone in a 7y radius.

For MT role, improve the Soul Devourer trait (lvl48) so that Dark Arts buff'd Souleater erects a magical barrier worth 10% of base HP/VIT (an on-demand cross-classed Stoneskin, but slightly not as good). As an added bonus allow the Barrier to be fed additional HPs via Souleater's if the absorbed HPs are over-healing him (maxed barrier at 15-20%). A potentially sustaining Stoneskin/Thrill of Battle hybrid -- that as a catch-22 -- requires more resources and effort to maintain.

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I really just think all of these quoted suggestions go overboard. My purpose for the OP was making only a few small, simple tweaks to DRK to bring it in line with WAR and PLD currently while addressing the majority of our current concerns with it pre-Alexander. Stuff that's easy to implement and what we were actually likely to get. These seem like more of a rework of the currently existing abilities where they aren't actually needed.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Your difference is that a Drk loses nothing if a Monk applies the buff. A ninja also loses nothing if a War applies slashing buff. This isn't a strike against the class as nothing plays to their detriment is a monk is Dragon Kicking as Delirium does not overwrite it.

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As someone mentioned, DRK may not lose anything, but he cannot do anything to actually increase the DPS gains for the group. Delirium is just our strongest Combo outside of Dark Arts. NIN or WAR can alternative go into a stronger combo since one is covering the other.

Checking post-encounter logs for Souleater, it's nothing to scoff at. With 100% of damage dealt == HP returned, the healing potential of Souleater is legit. It actually looks like one of our fundamental aspects for tanking.

On paper, the increases look great. But slightly similar to 2.0 Warrior, in practice it doesn't pan out. The absorbs amount to over-healing via ourselves or our healers.

With tanking, the PLD-side of our tool kit looks solid. It's the Dark Arts side that's questionable. Dark Arts giving a Blind Debuff, +Evasion, +15% magic resist.. RNG and inapplicable for most boss fights.

The self-healing of Souleater & Abyssal Drain are the only guaranteed & sustaining EHP increases via Dark Arts. But again this is capped by our maximum HP. It usually only amounts to Healers over-healing or wasting part or all of our HP absorb.

Parry is.. Parry. Molding DRK into a lolParry tank IMO is faulty. Dark Dance is for proc'ing Reprisal as it comes off CD, that debuff is far superior to DD for single target, and Reprisal's debuff is less valued in large mob situations while Dark Dance's value increases. The 2 CDs work together & balance each other out.

For smaller or single target engagements, Reprisal > Dark Dance.

For large pulls, Dark Dance > Reprisal.

No one's particularly happy about WAR losing Crit+ with Wrath for lolParry. (Except maybe smitten PLD/DRKs)

I notice in high end dungeon. The constant Aura from Darkside makes it hard to see ground targets, or harder to see them. The aura needs to definately focus on the body and be darker like the original one or be removed completely. Or be temporary (30 seconds) and black like the original.|

Soul Eater needs to be adjusted to heal double for what it does now.
100% non-traited,
200% traited.
The healing is far too weak for instances, it needs to heal for a significant more. Right now it heals less then "1" tick of Regen. I know we are not healers, however we don't reduce damage as much as the other tanks, we need healing to make up for it.

Dark Mind:
Gain the ability to block.
Modifies Block Rate by 50+4*level: 290 at level 60.
Modifies Block Strength by 50+10*level: 650 at level 60.
Dark Arts +:Additionally gain a dark shield which prevents damage. (Like shielding)
Duration: 15 seconds.
Instant Cast, 60 second cool-down.

Giving a short block to DRK will help them a lot.

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

I'd like to see delirium lower the magic defense of the enemy. I think that follows the same logic of DRK's being the mage killers that they always were :D

That would also allow another utility for DRK's in raids as either MT or OT.

Otherwise, the suggested changes sound quite reasonable to me ^^.

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Hey thats a badass idea! The only one who can lower it is bard. Getting another class would really compliment other setups!