We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

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You dont get my point. I mean maybe energy drain is supposed 2 lower our dps. Maybe we are not supposed 2 fester all of the time. Like tp classes that eventually run out from the tp if they do their max potential damage rotation without caring tp. TP classes can use the rotation that cost less tp but that reduce their dps like energy drain as summoner. BLM idea is doing good sustained dps whole 10min fight and other dps classes should do little better dps in the first 3 min than BLM, until the end they will be in the same numbers as blm or bit lower(if the bard do not sing tp/mana).

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Oh SMN can certainly stay afloat on MP if they so choose. The problem is, 150 potency lost per Energy Drain is a big deal. Using MP pots over X-Pots of INT, a very big deal since SMN gains more out of pots than anyone. Getting Mage's Ballad when it's normally not needed, taking away Foe's or at the least just lowering BRD DPS because you brought a SMN, is a big deal. If SMN maintains his MP the raid DPS suffers for it, either SMN's own DPS or BRD's. You can instead bring a BLM who will do more than SMN regardless of if SMN has infinite MP or not with no compensation, and then you can play Foe's for said BLM and make the gap even higher.

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^This is so true.

As a smn you could totally keep your mp pool lasting forever by over-using Energy Drain but the 150 potency lost for not using Fester is an incredible dps waste :x
For new statics wanting to progress quickly into fcob, the choice would be very obvious to make of what to take over blm and smn applicants, they would take a blm for faster progression :/ for the simple reason that the newly smn recruit have an additional con over a blm, the smn will have to perfectly learn a specific mp management pattern for each turns and so meaning more training.

Here is 2 exemples of what a smn mp pool look like when entering into turn13 adds phase (between 500 to 800 mps, the brd will have to do a quick ballad during divebombs to raise them at around 1500~ mps), it's kind of low considering the amount of adds to kill :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfxKbdZSXZw#t=334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JBmLNLxtM#t=422

I'm one of those people who doesn't want to admit it. But I remember going into t8 shortly after the blm buff and hearing how much dps the our blm was putting out. It left me so angry and jealous. I really enjoy being a Smn and I have no desire to change. However, I have a greater desire for expert raiding and my dps output is definitely not helping. Sure, I get to cast Lb, but that's because they'd rather have the blm keep dpsing. SE screwed me over and it hurts. I hope they fix it, but I honestly might just have to suck it up and change classes.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

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It's not really a huge deal to use Energy Drain over Fester in long fights. Even if you did 1 Energy Drain every Aetherflow it would only cost you about 10 DPS (@i110 - estimated 13 DPS at i130). That can sustain you for a 10 minute fight with 0 downtime doing your full optimal rotation (2066 MP recovery per minute)

The argument seems to be...."well I shouldn't have to lower my DPS in longer fights, by having to use Energy Drain over Fester", since SMN is only around 30 DPS less than a lucky BLM. (lots of procs, not chosen by mechanics etc).

I still don't think because SMN isn't owing in FCOB that it requires a complete rework. It just happens to greatly excel at certain types of fights - downtime - non AOE mobs - many interrupting mechanics.

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm?

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

Here is 2 exemples of what a smn mp pool look like when entering into turn13 adds phase (between 500 to 800 mps, the brd will have to do a quick ballad during divebombs to raise them at around 1500~ mps), it's kind of low considering the amount of adds to kill :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfxKbdZSXZw#t=334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JBmLNLxtM#t=422

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Not too bad since their Aetherflow just came up. That was the majority of MP gain. The other vid it looks like they Raised the WHM.
There is an opportunity where they can use Energy Drain due to dotting so many mobs. Yes 150 Potency is less than 300 Potency, but considering the amount of damage going out on those mobs by the SMN, if 150 potency is going to wipe the party then....

The problem with Summoner is the way it's designed. DoT classes are pure crowd control but since modern MMORPG's uses the holy trinity there is no such role. DoT instead should be regulated to healing not damage dealing since they are support otherwise as a dps they suffer from the power creep. The way raid content is going Summoner is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up. SE should give the Summoner Summoning Magic and make them a Pure Summoner.

I'm still confused as to how everyone's seems to be focused on MP costs. I mean, Summoner relies on DoT's largely, and you've got Garuda to extend their duration as well. It's not like you're endlessly spamming expensive spells like a Black Mage, and the big hitter (Fester) doesn't even cost MP, instead using up Aetherflow stacks. That's before even considering that Aetherflow can be used every minute and it recovers 20% of your total MP each time.

How are you eating up so much MP so quickly that this becomes such a heavy burden for you? Resurrect shouldn't even be a factor here.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I'm still confused as to how everyone's seems to be focused on MP costs. I mean, Summoner relies on DoT's largely, and you've got Garuda to extend their duration as well. It's not like you're endlessly spamming expensive spells like a Black Mage, and the big hitter (Fester) doesn't even cost MP, instead using up Aetherflow stacks. That's before even considering that Aetherflow can be used every minute and it recovers 20% of your total MP each time.

How are you eating up so much MP so quickly that this becomes such a heavy burden for you? Resurrect shouldn't even be a factor here.

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And what do you cast when all your dots are up and you don't need to renew them? Ruin. Slowly but surely you're eating away at your MP, with only limited ways to restore it. And as you said, Fester is the big hitter and it uses Aether stacks. The same stacks as Energy Drain, a necessary supplement to your MP regen. You are forced to gimp yourself to stay on top of MP, and even that's just a temporary state. Black Mages may have more expensive spells, but they also have an easy way to restore their MP, so it's not as much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I'm still confused as to how everyone's seems to be focused on MP costs. I mean, Summoner relies on DoT's largely, and you've got Garuda to extend their duration as well. That's before even considering that Aetherflow can be used every minute and it recovers 20% of your total MP each time.

How are you eating up so much MP so quickly that this becomes such a heavy burden for you? Resurrect shouldn't even be a factor here.

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It's just the cost of our spells. 20% of our MP is about 600 MP. That's not really a lot if you think about it. If you're just keeping up DoTs and not doing anything extra to maximize your DPS there really aren't any MP problems. The problem is when you start using spells like shadowflare, miasma II (only with contagion), and ruin II (between GCD and while moving). Without using these spells we'd get even more obliterated by other DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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Your arguments are valid Xero and actually I'm not complaining about my dps as smn, even if on some situations a "good" blm will be able to pull slightly more dps over me, I'm actually not mad about this since I play SMN for a complexity matter** but what turn me really mad is the whole unfair mp management on long fights, I shouldn't have to sacrifice that much dps and possibly making my whole team suffering of it, meanwhile, if I was playing BLM, I wouldn't need any special cares and be able to go full nuts on dps regardless of the situation.


**
Playing SMN :
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/615359smn.gif

Playing BLM : spoiler alert :

(slime puddle minions are there so the skills panel doesn't look too much empty :x)

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/840145blm.gif


@To Lemuria :
This whole discuss is aiming for an endgame point of view, midcore and raider scenes, it have nothing to do with casual contents.
MP management on casual contents isn't a problem at all as SMN.

I'm no SMN expert, but if the overarching goal of balance is to have SMNs run out of MP about the same time DRGs/BRDs/MNKs/NINs run out of TP and have to manage their resources similarly to their TP counterpart, wouldn't the simplest solution be increasing the base PIE modifier on SMNs to be slightly higher? This allows for higher passive MP regeneration as well as a higher MP restoration on Aetherflow.