Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

In tonights Final coil run, I was floored way before the monk in our party. Not only has SE nerfed our TP costs, they have essentially nerfed BRDs damage in a mnk-nin config. Before, I could goad my monk 30 seconds in, essentially delaying the need for paeon early. Now, no matter what happens, whether I goad the monk or bard, I still floor before either of them, making goad useless unless a tp resource party member dies.

I was sure that ninja was made more tp efficient to help this problem, but with the nerfs, its only worse.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

My case is doing just fine. Thank you though. Paeon for two melee isn't always better because in this case one of them is NIN so the MNK isn't starved if Goad is used properly.

What is there to enlighten you about? You can talk down to me all you'd like, sure. It's not as though I've never mained a melee job. I've been a DRG, SMN, and BRD main for coil. TP management involves modifying your rotation whenever necessary to conserve TP. It does mean you lose a little DPS, but the idea is that the DPS you lose is less than the DPS lost by losing Foe's uptime as well as the 20% damage reduction to your BRD. You don't just run yourself to zero and stare at the screen completely baffled. You plan out ahead of time when you do in the case you are at 300 or less TP with Invigorate not coming for a while.

Do you feel as though SMN should ALWAYS use fester too and never conserve their MP? And beg the BRD for Ballad at all times even when the healers don't need it? Resource management is a great thing to learn.

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so you're implying that adjusting your rotation so you "conserve tp" is better than budgeting your tp to get the most potency out of it? that's the most dumb, ignorant thing i've read this week, and i've read a lot of dumb things. let me put it in a simple way that can be understood

you can use 100 skills that do 1 damage each and cost 1 tp, or you can use 2 skills that do 100 damage each but cost 50 tp each. you're basically arguing that the first is superior, that it's something every melee dps should do for the benefit of the raid. what a joke.

of course you're going to lose dps because you're tp starved, you don't need to point that out. but "modifying your rotation", in the way that you imply (to conserve tp?), means you'd use the cheapest TP skills available. but look at the numbers; the cheapest TP skill chain for NIN is slash debuff chain, 60/50/50 for 610 total potency. 610 potency for 160 TP, do you realize that is the worst TP to potency ratio for this class? lol... if you're going to be TP starved and you know it, the ideal role to take is to make sure each and every point of TP you use is worth it; and for NIN, doing their basic rotation already fulfills that. keeping their TP efficient DoTs up while using their TP efficient 123 combo and letting warriors apply slash debuff; that is the most efficient use of TP for a nin, and any NIN player with a reliable warrior is already doing that, regardless of their TP number. so again, tell me, what would a nin who is already doing this, do to attain "proper tp management"?

you're 99% focused on your own brd dps rather than raid dps contribution, don't delude yourself. in conveniently mentioning how the mnk doesn't need paeon because of goad, you exclude your own tp usage, and optimal usage of the excess tp from the mnk as well. alternating goad between both of you isn't gonna make you both not need paeon eventually; even if we were to argue the case of paeon for 1 melee vs foes for 1 caster, you could literally do simple napkin math and figure out that the latter is worse for overall dps.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

How exactly does the slight increase in NIN tp cost eliminate the utility of Goad? /perplexed

"I'm going to run out of TP so you don't get my TP regen, now BRD lower your damage and play me Paeon" That's about the most selfish argument I've ever heard lol

"I can't cast Eye for an Eye on myself, so guess what tank you're not getting it either"

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I'll explain.

Normally, about 30 seconds into the raid, I'll hit my monk with a goad, then i can rotate my goad to the bard. The problem with the new TP hits, ninja is the one running the lowest on tp. I can hit my monk or bard with goad but the problem is, I'm still running low on TP, therefore my goad that i just used doesnt matter because the bard is gonna sing for me, regardless.

Its not selfish, its self explanatory. Its not the fact that we refuse to use it. The fact now is, even if we use it, WE still need the song.

What the guy above me said is pretty much it. The tp nerfs make some points of the job moot. Called it when I read the changes on dragoon though, DRG >=MNK > NIN in hierarchy now should have just gave nins a minor damage reduction and called it a day. NIN is prob the worst off of the three melees now unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

What the guy above me said is pretty much it. The tp nerfs make some points of the job moot. Called it when I read the changes on dragoon though, DRG >=MNK > NIN in hierarchy now should have just gave nins a minor damage reduction and called it a day. NIN is prob the worst off of the three melees now unfortunately.

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The damage nerf to ninja was slight, people calculated a less than 2% overall damage nerf.

The tp nerf is the only "major" thing. People have also said all 3 melee are rather close in damage, with the order of Mnk > Nin > Drg still. Just the gap between nin and drg being small and while both boost the damage of someone else in the party.

What they really should've nerfed, and didn't touch at all, the most ridiculous thing NIN can do: lower fall damage while on a mount. How does this make any sense? I'm sitting there, SITTING, in my magitek, and it jumps down with its bulky feet, to the point where most characters would've been reduced to 1 HP, and what? Because of my ninja skills my magitek and myself come out basically unscathed? Preposterous!

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

What they really should've nerfed, and didn't touch at all, the most ridiculous thing NIN can do: lower fall damage while on a mount. How does this make any sense? I'm sitting there, SITTING, in my magitek, and it jumps down with its bulky feet, to the point where most characters would've been reduced to 1 HP, and what? Because of my ninja skills my magitek and myself come out basically unscathed? Preposterous!

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Totally the most overpowered thing ever am I right.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Totally the most overpowered thing ever am I right.

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LoL if you really think about it, Dragoons should have this trait instead of NIN. I mean...our natural ability is to jump to high places and even across terrain...but we can't take it if we fall? =P

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The damage nerf to ninja was slight, people calculated a less than 2% overall damage nerf.

The tp nerf is the only "major" thing. People have also said all 3 melee are rather close in damage, with the order of Mnk > Nin > Drg still. Just the gap between nin and drg being small and while both boost the damage of someone else in the party.

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In fairness, a party of NIN/NIN would offer a solution to this "TP starvation". The other melee composition offers no such thing. Had NIN's TP not been brought down, then min/max parties will still take NIN/MNK over DRG. Now, they are all more on an even playing field.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

Something something something

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Feel free to calm down a bit. Please do this simple napkin math you mentioned for me and also provide numbers from actual combat to back it up instead of providing such snotty responses with bolded text and attempting to belittle a fellow raider.

In this math you'll have to provide the upside for NIN alone getting Paeon: No one else needs it in this scenario, at least in my group. DPS loss for BRD. The actual BRD loss is a bit less than 20% because of the extra TP they receive. Requires less holding back but still a noticeable drop overall.
vs the upside of Foe's for 1 caster: 15% boost for casters, small boost for NIN due to magic attacks, SCH DPS increase (our SCH does quite a bit of DPS)

I provided an actual end game scenario where Foe's proved to be the better option for our first t13 clear a month ago. Don't see an issue with anecdotal evidence in this case. It's not that I downright refuse to play Paeon. I play it on request if I have the MP to do so. But the amount of requests I get within my raid group are quite low. Only Paeon requests the past few weeks were t11 this week for 20s for our NIN and t10 a few weeks back because our WAR must have used sprint by accident. And even when I pugged t10 and t11 on my alt the melee seemed pretty self sufficient while still pulling very very good numbers. On the other hand I've raided with some melee that beg for Paeon every few minutes, and that is when it is a big problem and a clear raid DPS loss.

You can argue that I still 'need' Paeon with Goad. I would say that I don't need Paeon with or without Goad. In my testing there is a noticeable individual DPS gain from a BRD just holding back Heavy Shots, keeping up dots and straight shot, and using procs whenever possible vs using Paeon to bolster TP. In a party with two melee that aren't NIN that individual gain is not worth the loss to the two melee. In that scenario I generally open with BV Foe's and then use half a bar of MP on Paeon. And then full bar of MP for BV Foe's. And back to 1/2 a bar of Paeon. In fights with sufficient downtime this changes. And obviously unforeseen deaths during a fight can change song usage as well.

In a party with a NIN the going between Foe's and Paeon meta changes. There is a noticeable DPS gain for both BRD and MNK with Goad, and I no longer have to plan out a few spots to use 1/2 a MP bar on Paeon. With a NIN the use of Paeon instead of Foe's a bit more questionable. Foe's benefits your caster(s) greatly (healer DPS too) and benefits your NIN to a smaller extent.

Furthermore, if I used Paeon every time I was low on TP in a FCoB fight I would never use Foe's outside of the opener. Even with Goad a BRD that is pressing their buttons will burn through TP very quickly. This would be unfortunate as I typically try to use all my Battle Voices on Foe's when possible. I have never not had to hold back and conserve TP in phase 2 of t13. To compensate I was using Paeon here, but we found that using Foe's instead helped pushed the phase faster and was a factor in our first kill vs 2-3% enrage deaths. Once we push two dragons this changes as I will no longer have to hold back during the phase.

And no, sorry. Once again, this is not about my personal DPS. BRD is lowest on the totem pole by far and no amount of catering to myself will change that. Especially with no DRG + NIN party comp. :P If you can provide actual proof that my thought process is wrong then I will surely consider changing how I plan my song usage. If the melee in my group were discontent with my song usage they would likely tell me as we are all good friends.