Paladins are a rodeo clown. Warriors are a matador.

I feel WAR is overall better designed than PLD. Its probably because they have a lot of underlining systems that add to their complexity: wrath stacks, trading wrath stacks for other skills that open up different options, multiple combo options etc.

PLD is pretty much stuck with RoH combo and flash, because of this there doesn't seem to be much depth to the class though it can provide the same tanking efficiency as WAR. Personally, I don't have a problem with enmity on PLD, though initially WAR is much better due to PLD not having Shield Oath. From my perspective and experience, here is some things I'd like to see changed:

1. Shield/Sword Oath no longer on GCD
2. Shield Swipe no longer on GCD, additional effect increases enmity
3. Circle of Scorn made slightly stronger
4. Fix the delay on hallowed ground

I think PLD has some interesting mechanics, like pacification, blind and silence but later on in game these start to lose effectiveness due to mobs being completely immune to those effects. Overall I wish the shield was more of a feature with the class. Maybe something neat like a spell reflection would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You might want to check that.

Defiance reduces damage by 25%, reduces damage output by 25% and increases HP recovery via healing magic by 20%
Shield Oath reduces damage by 20% reduces damage output by 20%

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It doesn't reduce damage, it increases HP by 25%:

Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. HP recovered via curing magic is increased 20%.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You might want to check that.

Defiance reduces damage by 25%, reduces damage output by 25% and increases HP recovery via healing magic by 20%
Shield Oath reduces damage by 20% reduces damage output by 20%

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lol...

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Originally Posted by Domira

It doesn't reduce damage, it increases HP by 25%:

Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. HP recovered via curing magic is increased 20%.
Effect ends upon reuse.

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This.
Defiance does not reduce the amount of damage you take, only the amount you inflict. It's more HP and heals received are bigger, but you take more damage per hit than a PLD in Shield Oath. Shield Oath is just 20% less damage taken.

These both accomplish the same thing, and Adlo/Stoneskin are equally as effective on either. (And this is very old news)

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

ACT can be funky at times as well so you need a large data sample, not a single fight.

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Just wanted to point out that its not much larger sample size but he (JP Button PLD) did have a 2nd Clear/Parse with lesser gear at 320 DPS. Not much but its something.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

Just wanted to point out that its not much larger sample size but he did have a 2nd Clear/Parse with lesser gear at 320 DPS. Not much but its something.

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I'm gonna OT PLD in t8 tonight. I'm HA legs away from BiS so it should be a decent account.

I tried it two weeks ago but our MT died at 25% and I took over from there ended up 265 dps.

There isn't any point in comparing Shield Oath to Defiance. They are both so similar and accomplish the same thing it's not worth mentioning. The 20% less damage Paladin will take Warrior already has more extra HP to make up for it. But once Warrior's litttle chunk of extra HP is gone it's no longer as much of a meatshield.

PLD is better at taking multiple hard hitting hits.
WAR is better at taking one really hard hitting hit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

I'm gonna OT PLD in t8 tonight. I'm HA legs away from BiS.

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Yea its also worth mentioning that he Tanked the Dreads in Sword Oath (Dang!) as well. Not sure if that would make a huge difference in overall dps but if you wanna challenge his parse it might be worth trying out in your test. Our group has me (MT PLD) tank both the Dread/Avatar even though we run 2Tank (PLD/WAR). So not sure if it even matters. The use of poison + stat pots will definitely be needed as he uses them off cd.

Mind posting your BiS Arriyala? I've seen so many PLD BiS's that theres no real definitive one. I'd love to take a peek at yours. Mine doesnt involve the HA Pants, its a Max Parry Build BiS.

Ofcourse if you meant BiS DPS Set then yea i use the HA pants in those situations for sure. I think im hovering around 8.2k HP, 285 DET, 391 CRIT using all VIT accessories (BiS DPS MT set)

When I am healing, doing SCH or WHM, I much rather have a PLD as tank. And what is it with the obsession about tank DPS? They don't need to DPS, they need stay alive and keep Twintania, Raffy, Melusine, Titan, etc. from running all over the place. Solo tanking any of those bosses, I much rather have a PLD doing that task. Taking hit after hit and surviving is not about being a rodeo clown.

Ehhhh... the only time I like healing one tank over the other is in speedruns. For those I much prefer WARs in DPS gear + STR spec'd. Makes things crazy fast.

Also I hate tanking with my PLD. I no longer have aggro issues(because my weapon is a decent ilv) it's just....blah. The lack of AoE annoys me too. I don't see why it's balanced that WAR gets so many good AoE skills but PLD doesn't. Just my opinion. I main WAR on my alt character but I don't have it at level 50 on this character.

Ugh this again? War stomps pld for MT dps. Pld has something like a 4% edge over war dps when OT. Even more if a war MT gives then slash debuff.

Pld has higher enmity over time for single target. (FoF is retarded good, war must cycle non enmity combos, and war tank stance is -25% while pld is only -20%)

War has higher aoe enmity and general spike enmity (zerk being ~44% boost, unchained being 33% boost multiplying to become 90ish% boost in spike damage/enmity.

War GAINS tools in tank mode. Wrath stacks increase crit. We get a slew of moves only usable in tank stance which all boost damage. IB 300 pot ignore dam penalty. Unchained remove dam penalty. SC 250 pot aoe ignore tank penalty. War gets a lotta stuff that all ups dps in tank ml mode. Of course they do more MT damge. Pld gains......swipe. OT it's reversed. Pld gains a giant AA buff. War looses all its defiance abilities. Pld gains an edge OT. Shit aint rocket science.

Pld has stronger CDs, but they have giant timers and low durations. War has weaker ones but much shorter timers and longer durations. Pld has str debuff. War has path. Pld has a shield. War has ib. Both tank stances are functionally equivalent (wars require 4% more heals but should make that up with various life regeneration abilities)

Pld may be 'boring' but it is effective. All this QQ about pld isn't based in performance. It performs fine as a tank. It's just QQ about style/flavor/feel. The tanks are balanced. Just because you don't 'like' one doesn't mean its broken.

Not liking a job doesn't make it ineffective. Pld and war have both been proven to effectively tank everything in this game more than competently. And as a side note, once you're geared enough you start tanking things without tank stance. Remember who does more damage without tank stance again?