1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

@Arcell: I agree with most of what you're saying - I think it's just too early to know where we'll be in 6 months. Yoshi mentioned changes to classes (redistributing abilities), jobs that will be used primarily in parties, etc. So we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't think that's the "reason you can level all classes on one character" though. You could level them all in FFXI and the cross-classing was nowhere near this demanding. But like I said, I don't mind cross-classing, it's the degree to which we can do it now that concerns me.



This is just flatly not true. I would actually say *most* of the skills are above r30. Cure III, CON 48. Sac III, THM 48. Taunt II, PUG 40. Defender II, MRD 48. There are a couple abilities in the 30s and 40s for LNC and ARC that would be "useful" for a tank as well, but I'll leave them out because the player base hasn't deemed them necessary, yet. For now, some of those listed are perceived as more "required" than others but the point stands - it's well past r20 or r30.

Edit: @ the bold part of the quote. That is a *massive* difference. That can't be overstated. Leveling a class to 25 is a world away from 50.

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That's 4 skills focusing on the needs of GLA and THM. That's hardly the majority of needed cross classing in the game.

First, I'm using tanking as an example. I thought that was clear.

Second, let's say I need 4 cross-class abilities from THM in order to tank on GLA effectively. They come at ranks 2, 4, 6, and 48. Guess which rank I need to get to? The *only* thing that matters is the rank of the highest ability. I thought everyone could at least agree on that....

The thing is we are assuming each class had a definitive party role. Each class has the ability to do certain things more effectively than others, but for the most part all the classes can do anything in this game.

Ranking GLA to 50 to tank is not a complete goal. Classes are just different proficiency sets with weapons and tools in this game.

This is why the dev team is introducing Jobs. Jobs are essentially roles for a party - enhancing the party gameplay.

Until we get Jobs to give us bonus skills that maximize our proficiency in them, it is up to us to gain experience with a variety of weapons and tools in order to more effectively tank, DD, heal.

It's an assumption to say that ranking GLA makes you an effective tank, or that ranking LNC makes you an effective DD.

Classes are not jobs.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

First, I'm using tanking as an example. I thought that was clear.

Second, let's say I need 4 cross-class abilities from THM in order to tank on GLA effectively. They come at ranks 2, 4, 6, and 48. Guess which rank I need to get to? The *only* thing that matters is the rank of the highest ability. I thought everyone could at least agree on that....

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The problem is, it's not *required* to tank effectively. It makes it take less effort, but it's hardly required. It doesn't matter anyway as all these complaints are based on ignoring that 1.18 is not the end of the changes to the battle system or classes.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

The problem is, it's not *required* to tank effectively. It makes it take less effort, but it's hardly required.

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Try tanking on any class with only their native abilities. Or make a list of abilities you would tank with on GLA or MRD or PUG without cross-classing at all. You plainly could not tank anything of significance.

This is getting pedantic and strawman-ish.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The thing is we are assuming each class had a definitive party role. Each class has the ability to do certain things more effectively than others, but for the most part all the classes can do anything in this game.

This is why the dev team is introducing Jobs. Jobs are essentially roles for a party - enhancing the party gameplay.

It's an assumption to say that ranking GLA makes you an effective tank, or that ranking LNC makes you an effective DD.

Classes are not jobs.

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If you are right, and jobs turn out to be as you say, I will have absolutely no problem with cross-classing. But as it stands, the class system is all we have. And like I said way back in my first post, I'm fine with the system for now, as long as we know changes are coming (which we do, just not definitive ones).

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Try tanking on any class with only their native abilities. Or make a list of abilities you would tank with on GLA or MRD or PUG without cross-classing at all. You plainly could not tank anything of significance.

This is getting pedantic and strawman-ish.

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MRD and PGL were only main tanks in Tanaka's version of the game. That game is gone. Dead. As for GLA, I didn't say you didn't have to cross class. I said it's not required to get the higher Rank version of some abilities. They make it less effort, but are by no means required.

The introduction of Jobs may alleviate the need to do as much cross-class ranking up. If being a Paladin eliminates lots of cross-class skills from being equipped but still is a better tank, then suddenly those cross-over combinations aren't as useful to rank up any more.

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

MRD and PGL were only main tanks in Tanaka's version of the game. That game is gone. Dead. As for GLA, I didn't say you didn't have to cross class. I said it's not required to get the higher Rank version of some abilities. They make it less effort, but are by no means required.

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I will agree with your last comment, sort of. MRDs and PUGs are tanking Deepvoid Slave, but I see your point.

As far as getting higher rank abilities, they aren't required right now. But as far as game design goes, you either design content that is hard for a player with all cross-class abilities or you make it hard for someone who doesn't (or somewhere in between). One event can't be hard for both types of characters. I think going down this entirely open-ended freedom is going to be a source of a lot of trouble in that regard. But as we know, lots of changes are coming to class abilities, ability distribution, and jobs. So we'll just have to see where everything lands.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

If you are right, and jobs turn out to be as you say, I will have absolutely no problem with cross-classing. But as it stands, the class system is all we have. And like I said way back in my first post, I'm fine with the system for now, as long as we know changes are coming (which we do, just not definitive ones).

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This game as a whole is still a work in progress, and the changes brought with 1.18 are in no way complete changes. They are the essential groundwork for 1.19 and 1.20 to say the least.

I will concur that cross-classing leads to a very large advantage at this point in the game, arguably more than it should, but again if you gather all the information we were given about how jobs will work it becomes more or less clear that becoming effective at party roles without needing to cross-class is something they will effectively introduce.