A couple of things I disagree with:Quote:
Originally Posted by BushidoMP
Speccing 30 STR basically trades VIT for STR at a 1:1 ratio.
Wearing Gryphonskin Accessories over i90 Accessories trades VIT for STR at a 5:9 ratio, plus you get a TON more secondary damage stats and slightly more Parry chance (some in the form of DEX) along with it.
By saying "Spec +30STR, wear Full i90 DPS accessories", you're essentially saying trading 30 VIT for 30 STR is worth it, but trading 25 VIT for 45 STR is not worth it. This makes no mathematical sense and is bad advice.
IMO: Spec +30 VIT. Wear the accessories that are most appropriate for the encounter and your role.
This is definitely not what I said. "Best-in-Slot" varies from encounter-to-encounter and boils down to what is more valuable in that fight: The boost to WAR HP vs The boost to WAR Damage.Quote:
let me state that I agree with OP in saying that I believe REAL BiS Warrior for any encounter is a healthy mix of VIT and DPS accessories to maximize the balance between Parry Rate and Parry%(the amount mitigated).
Parry has very little to do with it.
Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output
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02-13-2014, 06:00 AMbokchoykn
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02-13-2014, 06:12 AMBushidoMPNot word for word, but I thought in the general sense you felt that it's best to do more damage while still being a reliable tank; forgive my assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
Anyway, about the STR trade... the mathematical trade off is better with i70 accessories, but you're doing to do more damage with full i90 STR accesories, and you can still tank every encounter in the game currently. That was the point of my post.
If you wanna debate absolute optimal gear scenario per every encounter in the game I have no desire to argue with you, but I would stand by my claim that i90 dps accesories > i70 penta melds.
Edit:
Also, I wanted to say that I think trading 30VIT for 30STR is worth it, if you have the gear for it, yes. Also, you're twisting my words here just to make your point. I'm not discrediting i70 pentamelds at all, they're still a good option. I'm merely advocating my method.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
What is your point with this thread? Did you wanna facilitate a discussion about warrior damage, or did you just want to argue with everyone about why your method is superior? Because that's about all you've done so far.
Post YOUR stats on your warrior with your 30VIT and your i70 pentamelds, and we'll compare them to mine and see if you really get a TON more secondary damage stats. -
02-13-2014, 07:37 AMbokchoyknMy mistake. I read your TLDR at as i90 Tank accessories.Quote:
Originally Posted by BushidoMP
i90 DPS accessories will give you the most damage, but gives you no HP and much less mitigation
i90 Tank accessories will give you the most HP, but give you very, very little damage.
i70 Pentamelded accessories essentially give you ~75% of the damage, ~55% of the HP, and slightly more mitigation than any other option.
Basically:
i90 VIT: Survivability 10, Damage 1
i90 STR: Survivability 1, Damage 10
i70 Crafted: Survivability 7, Damage 7
I would against i90 DPS accessories. If my healers are really good, can I tank every encounter in the game wearing Monk Accessories? Probably. But using that logic, you could also argue that if your DPS is really good, you shouldn't have to wear DPS accessories.
The bottom line is: Which set will give you the highest chance at success and the lowest risk of failure? I highly doubt that i90 STR accessories and +30 STR is the answer to this question for all encounters. -
02-13-2014, 11:12 AMBushidoMPWhat? Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
Can you post your numbers like I asked? I'm curious about doing a comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
The title of this thread is literally "Maximizing DPS Output" -- that's what the purpose of my reply was, to explain how I maximize my DPS output. Explaining that I've been able to tank all encounters in the game in DPS gear was just some bonus info. If you want to discuss optimal gear sets for all encounters. Rate of Success vs Risk of Failure, that's an entirely different argument. At that rate, why not spec +30 VIT and i90 tanking accessories and call it a day. Discussion over.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
Pick an argument.
Min/Maxing the optimal build for tanking survivability vs damage output is basically going to be defined by having a combination of a large amount of effective HP, high Parry Rate and Parry mitigation (%parried). In this case, as I stated previously, you're probably best off mixing up i90 tanking + i90 dps accessories where Parry, Determination, and STR take precedence. I don't say vitality because it's innately attached to the tanking accessories. We don't truly know if STR/Parry is tiered or matches up point for point, but if we go with the tier theory, it's probably best to build STR until you reach 25% mitigation from parries, and then stack parry to increase your parry rate. Crit isn't entirely irrelevant, but it holds the lowest weight.
Anyway, I digress. Please post your gear sets + stats so we can continue to discuss warrior DPS output. -
02-13-2014, 11:58 AMbokchoyknI am at work. I cannot log in right now to show you my stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by BushidoMP
This thread is more about making DPS a priority. Not necessarily making it the ultimate priority or putting DPS above all else. It was a poorly-chosen title. I'm bad at making titles, so I apologize for any confusion.Quote:
The title of this thread is literally "Maximizing DPS Output" -- that's what the purpose of my reply was, to explain how I maximize my DPS output.
The point of the thread was that Warriors (and tanks in general) should do what they can to maximize their DPS output, while performing the other primary functions of the job. Not necessarily to blindly maximize DPS at all costs.
Warrior would obviously output more DPS with full STR gear and 30 STR attribute points, there is definitely no argument there.
The BiS set for each individual fight is definitely a good topic of debate. For example:
Because, depending on the fight, this might not be the best way to increase rate of success. For instance, I think damage is the main bottleneck in the Titan EX fight, not tank survivability. It is worth giving up 25 VIT for 45 STR (i90 VIT to Gryphonskin), but probably not worth giving up 75 VIT for 65 STR (i90 VIT to i90 STR).Quote:
At that rate, why not spec +30 VIT and i90 tanking accessories and call it a day.
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02-13-2014, 12:35 PMWowSuchName
Who will deal more DPS ?
WAR on 30STR + Allagan DPS accessories Vs Dragoon on 30VIT + Allagan Tank accessories -
02-14-2014, 12:49 AMBushidoMPSee, therein lies the heart of my argument, and maybe you don't see that... I'm not maximizing DPS at all costs... I'm maximizing DPS and still doing all the hardest content in the game. You're not losing enough tanking stats to make it a bad trade-off. You're spouting off theory and how things "should work". I'm claiming that it's totally possible and probably worth it to wear full i90 DPS gear and still clear the current content in the game. You said yourself that most content is a DPS race in some form. One could argue that the faster an enemy is defeated, the better chance a tank has at surviving... so why not actively try to contribute to that goal?Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
No, I assure you, it's definitely worth it to wear i90 DPS accessories. If damage is the bottleneck then you're only supporting my argument. I do more damage, therefore, fight is completed more efficiently. Have you had the luxury of trying full i90 dps accessories? If not, you really should. When you get the chance to post some gearsets/stats it could be a great contributor to discussion. I'll do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
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02-14-2014, 01:32 AMRexus
What exactly are you tanking in full i90 DPS gear w/ 30 attribute STR? Please be specific, I've been debating whether I should go ahead and put 30 in STR and still be able to main tank everything without problem. Thanks!
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02-14-2014, 01:56 AMBushidoMPAll EX Primals except Ifrit because there's no point. Coil Turns 1-2. Turn 4 I've always ran as off tank, Dreadnoughts probably would require a slightly more tanky build though with the level of gear my group has now I could probably main tank in my i90 DPS gear because we only have 2 Dreads alive for like 5 seconds, if that. And I've also tanked Twintania with my DPS gear, just requires that you stagger cooldowns and ready Inner Beast for Death Sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexus
Even if you don't wear i90 DPS accessories and you wear full VIT gear, I still think speccing 30 STR is the best course of action. You'll do a little more damage, and it will increase the amount of damage you parry. 30VIT is only about 400-500HP (14.5 x 30), so realistically, end-game that isn't going to save you too much. -
02-14-2014, 02:52 AMRexus
I did some comparisons between Gryphonskin / i90 DPS jewelry, and here\\'s what I got. This is using the melds I have and what I believe would be "BIS" DPS jewelry for WAR, and using 30 points in STR/HQ buttons.
Gryphonskin:
STR 448, ACC 501, CRIT 385, DET 346, SS 380, VIT 482, PAR 420
i90 DPS:
STR 468, ACC 473, CRIT 359, DET 352, SS 383, VIT 432, PAR 420
At the moment, the ACC gains in Gryphonskin are negligible, but may prove useful for T6-9. The CRIT difference puts Gryphonskin at say 2-3% higher crit rate. The DET and SS differences are negligible IMO.
It\\'s really just between choosing 20 STR or 50 VIT. I\\'d go with the VIT since that\\'s nearly 1K HP in defiance, that\\'s just me tho.
I\\'ve tanked double Dreadnaughts with DPS gear and only 8.1k HP, and main tanked 95% of titan ex with the same gear (I also parsed 200+ DPS w/ defiance on those titans). I dunno how safe I\\'d feel doing this with full DPS gear, but I don\\'t see why you couldn\\'t do it.