[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

The hate meter isn't going away. At most they'll allow you to toggle it on and off. In Matsui's letter, the first section talks about how they want to develop skillful play. One of the things they wanted to solve was the lack of information needed for skillful play and having a hate meter helps them do that. We could possibly see the inclusion of many things that you guys see as n00bish, but it's a part of their plan to make the system enjoyable for everyone.

I vote Yes and No.

My first reaction when I read Matsui's letter was the same as OP, however there isn't enough information to make an informed decision. This is one of very few specific features he spoke about weighed against very vague promises of more "strategic play".

Hate teh hate meter!
If game mechanics fall short of our expectations or generally stay consistent with what we're accustomed to in other games, then the hate meter becomes a crutch. It removes the necessity for a skill of intuition to be gained through experience for certain classes/jobs (tanks). This is the same skill of intuition that's required for ALL other hidden algorithms of the game. Yes, we can run tests and parses to make estimates and theories of underlying mechanics, but skill in these games often relies heavily on being able to mentally manage these unknown variables in the moment based on past experience using what clues we are given ie. the mob turns to slap you around, or your told there are iron nuggets above where you're mining.

Hate meter = Yes, please!
We all have hopes and dreams that the new battle system will meet our (probably unrealistic) expectations of complexity and strategy. In such dreams I can fully see the addition of a hate meter adding balance to make other, new battle mechanics more manageable. This still means the hate meter is a crutch, but if there's a demand for a high degree of skill in other/new areas of a class during battle and the hate meter allows for slightly more manageable timing, then it may provide to be a valuable element.

Moral of the story...
If they're going to add a crutch, then they better add more complexity as well to maintain balance. We have no idea if this is true based on what we've been told so far.

I def say no.

I don't see how "Fostering Skillful Play" and a hate meter go along at all.
Oh great, so now we just can turn off our brains completly? Yea, that's really fostering skillful play.

Honestly it would be better to speculate what it could or wouldnt be used for, rather than just a blunt yes or no. We dont even know how it looks or how it really works yet.

I’m completely indifferent to the hate meter idea. I do agree that it is unnecessary; however it won’t hinder my enjoyment of the game one bit because I can and will ignore it 95% of the time, or hopefully toggle it off if I want. Let the people have a hate meter if they want, no one is forcing you to use it.

After reading about the battleplan blueprint, i'm glad with almost all the changes that SE is going to make except the hate meter... I mean c'mon seriously do we need a "HATE METER"???

Reason why i say no to the hate system is because if we do indeed get a hate meter it will spoil all the fun for the game. I still remember being a tanker for my LS during ffxi and part of the fun is learning how to control hate and how to maintain it. Think about it, with the difficulty of the current mob and IF WE DO GET A HATE METER, it will seems to be that ffxiv will be in EASY MODE"OVERDRIVE" and i personally do not want to be the laughing stock of the whole MMO community for playing such game...

It will also cut down the thrill of something going wrong. True, it's good when everything is in order and went on smoothly but guys do you still remember the fun that you have when you first started out learning the hate thereshold and finally mastering it, haha such is the fun of what i would like to call "Trial and Error" ^^

So ya i'll stick to my decision, PLEASE SAY NO TO THE HATE METER 0_o

YES TO THE HATE METER! Why? Because most of the people are saying no to it. I know how to track hate and so does the rest of my linkshell, but just because so many people are against something that will make the noobs better, I'm going to say BRING IT!

My 2 cents: i say yes to hate meter BUT if can be hidden. It's a good tool and it's pointless don't desire it if you find useful

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Abriael, I agree with you on many things, but I just can't agree on this one.

I understand the point the naysayers are making, and personally, I'm right there with you on it. Being good at what I do certainly appeals to me. But the hate meter is still a tool, not a crutch. Would you look down on a logger for using a chainsaw instead of on ax? Do you want a doctor to cut out a "tumor" that he just "felt" rather than x-rayed? Technology that helps people be better at their jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Technology that literally does someone's job altogether is another story, like auto-pilot :/ )

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For the chainsaw versus axe comparison... Not really a good comparison. Both will do the job, and there's little learning involved with how to swing an axe at a tree, or how to use a chainsaw on it. It's a self-explanatory activity in either case. There are plenty of people who fell their own trees or do their own lumber work who aren't professional lumberjacks.

Further, whether they're using an axe or a chainsaw... they still need to learn how to use each most most effectivel. That only comes through hands-on experience, to gain skill in it. There's no artificial, outside meter or gauge telling them where to hit, or how to hit or from what angle. They have to gain that knowledge themself... by doing it, by learning what methods get the best results.

Further still, the comparison of Axe to Chainsaw is really more akin to Dagger versus Great sword. Both get the job done, one potentially does it faster. Both require time and practice to use effectively which, again, is only gained through hands-on experience.

As for the doctor "feeling" for a tumor rather than "scanning" for it. I actually said "Really?" out loud to this one. You are really comparing something that's a matter of life or death... to something in a video game? If I go to the doctor with a tumor and there's a chance it's cancerous, you bet your ass I'm going to want the most accurate and reliable means used to determine if it's malignant or not. You make a mistake in a game, you can learn from it and correct it. You get another chance to correct it. A doctor mis-diagnoses a tumor as being "nothing serious" and it could cost you your life. No do-overs. Horrible, horrible analogy.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

If someone wants to use hate meters as a tool so they can do their job more efficiently, who has the right to tell them how to enjoy the game? Not everyone can be Luke Skywalker; some will be better off using their instruments. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to.

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Because, again, it takes away one more element of the game for players to learn and master on their own, just like having clearly marked spots on a map for quests takes away the element of players having to actually pay attention to what's required of them, or of having to actually quest for their objective. It's just like how ! over NPCs heads takes away the factor of having to actually interact with NPCs, learn about them and see what they want, reducing them from residents of a virtual world, to being little more than anonymous quest dispensers.

It is a crutch because without a meter, players have to learn different mobs' behavior to see how they respond to different tactics or strategies and learn which ones to employ in what circumstances. Without one, players have to pay attention to their own actions, develop a rhythm or pacing to their attacks/heals/tanking to help keep aggro under control. Without one, groups have to better communicate and be aware of what's happening with their other party members (healers have to pay attention to HP to see if aggro has switched, etc).

With a hate meter, all of that is removed because now all players have to do is watch the hate bars to see what's giong on, and respond accordingly.

In either case, "strategy" is being used to take on enemies. The difference is in what that strategy is based on. Is it based on hands-on experience with a mobs behaviors, strengths, weaknesses and proven tactics for establishing and controlling aggro that are proven to work? Or, is it based on what some little % bars indicate somewhere on the screen? To me, the former is far more interesting, challenging and entertaining than the latter.

Aggro management - not only actively as a tank, but passively as a DD or healer - is definitely a skill that is learned, improved and honed over time. Adding a hate meter eliminates a large chunk of that skill from even being necessary.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

As for people "requiring" hate meters, no one can make anyone do anything they don't want to. If someone "required" addons, I'd just either ignore it or move on to a different group. It would also be as easy to make a LS that requires everything to be toggled off as much as one that requires all toggles on.

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I can agree with you there in principal. I've always had the same attitude. My time, my money, my choice.

However, I've also had a tougher time progressing through various MMOs because of my attitude. I was left out of a number of events because I refused to use certain add-ons, or to employ certain tactics that - to me - removed "me" too much from what was going on, and made it less interesting.

Sadly, there are many players who are absolutely 100% dependent on add-ons to remove as much of the risk and chance of error as possible, making the encounter as predictable as they can to guarantee a victory. Unfortunately, many of these people also demand that everyone else do the same as they do... or you're not invited.

If hate meters are in the game, having them toggle-able would be moot. The players who absolutely depend on them will demand they're being used by everyone in their group at all times. It happens in every other MMO I've played with such things... No reason to believe it won't happen in XIV either.

That's kind of the irony of people saying "who are you to tell others how to play?". People who are completely dependent on using add-ons have absolutely no qualms with telling people "how to play" on a regular basis. Such people will also tell you what gear to use, what spec to go with, what buffs to have, what class to play, etc.

I'm not trying to tell anyone "how to play". All I'm saying is forget the aggro meter and let the players learn how to gauge and control hate through hands-on gameplay, paying attention and so forth... Good old trial and error.

All this damn thing is doing is displaying information. Why are you all so afraid of seeing information?

The only "skill" it takes out of tanking is having to guess whether or not you're holding hate well and wondering how long you'll be able to keep it. You still have to know how to tank properly, meter or not. If you don't know how to tank properly than you're going to lose hate either way. Works the same for DD, if you don't know how to manage your hate on your class then you're going to pull it with or without the meter. All the meter does is take out the speculation involved with it.

The hate meter can actually be a decent tool for teaching newer players especially how to properly manage hate on their job. You can show them right then and there who their actions are effecting the enmity flow in battle. You have an accurate means of showing them how to manage their hate in a variety of ways.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing though. I could do without it but I can see how it would be useful.