Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Additionally, DoT damage isn't increased by Disembowel so in truth FT combo does more than Fracture by a slightly larger margin than you'd think.

The only reason we used Fracture in the rotation at one time is because DoT clipping wasn't a thing you could do (and, with FT at 300 potency instead of the current 330, that combo's avg potency was 650/3=216.67, less than 220). So it padded out one move in our rotation.

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Okay. What's DoT clipping?

Also, DoT damage not increased by disembowel? What?

And what should I put in that cross-class skill slot instead of Fracture, then?

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Okay. What's DoT clipping?

Also, DoT damage not increased by disembowel? What?

And what should I put in that cross-class skill slot instead of Fracture, then?

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"Clipping" is when you refresh it before it drops off. Before, if you had a buffed version up it was impossible to clip at all. Nowadays you just have to make sure you don't clip excessively. How much is considered excessive varies by dot, but you usually don't want more than ~3 seconds or so.

I can't comment on the disembowel thing, because I don't actually play DRG, but that's what the forums report, so I'll run with it. Same with the question of cross-class.

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Originally Posted by Andyman

I've had 1 maiming left side piece since 2.2 launch, meanwhile the bard in my group is 107 and has every bard piece drop from turn 6-8

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Only get one piece was me up until this week when the legs and ring dropped.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

"Clipping" is when you refresh it before it drops off. Before, if you had a buffed version up it was impossible to clip at all. Nowadays you just have to make sure you don't clip excessively. How much is considered excessive varies by dot, but you usually don't want more than ~3 seconds or so.

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So why would "DoT clipping" not being do-able be a reason to use Fracture?

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

So why would "DoT clipping" not being do-able be a reason to use Fracture?

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Because without artificially extending your rotation with fracture, causing chaos thrust/phleb to drop off, you wouldn't be able to overwrite it if it had previously been applied with a buff. The dot simply wouldn't apply at all.

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Originally Posted by Riotpersona

Because without artificially extending your rotation with fracture, causing chaos thrust/phleb to drop off, you wouldn't be able to overwrite it if it had previously been applied with a buff. The dot simply wouldn't apply at all.

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I never saw an inability to reapply my DoT while it was still up regardless of having been applied with a buff previously, on any class.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I never saw an inability to reapply my DoT while it was still up regardless of having been applied with a buff previously, on any class.

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This was changed in 2.1, but that was the reason DRG used fracture.

I am totally gonna throw in all the DET I can for my Novus Weapon, hate having to deal with RNG when it comes to my DPS

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Also, DoT damage not increased by disembowel? What?

And what should I put in that cross-class skill slot instead of Fracture, then?

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The initial damage of skills (200 on Chaos Thrust, 100 on Fracture) is affected by both Heavy Thrust's damage buff and Disembowel's piercing resistance down debuff. The DoT portion of skills (30/tick for 10 ticks on CT, 20/tick for 6 ticks on Fracture) is not affected by Disembowel.

IR Mercy and any 3 of Bloodbath SecondWind Mantra Foresight. Typically I take the first 3.

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Originally Posted by Riotpersona

This was changed in 2.1, but that was the reason DRG used fracture.

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I pretty much played DRG exclusively pre-2.1 and seriously don't remember ever having that issue. Not gonna say it wasn't the case, just don't remember it ever happening/being an issue.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

The initial damage of skills (200 on Chaos Thrust, 100 on Fracture) is affected by both Heavy Thrust's damage buff and Disembowel's piercing resistance down debuff. The DoT portion of skills (30/tick for 10 ticks on CT, 20/tick for 6 ticks on Fracture) is not affected by Disembowel.

IR Mercy and any 3 of Bloodbath SecondWind Mantra Foresight. Typically I take the first 3.

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I currently have IR, Mercy, Bloodbath, Second Wind, and Fracture. Mantra, imo, is completely useless. It's only a 5% increase as a cross-class skill, which is not worth it in the slightest, imo. Foresight can be useful, but only against physical damage, so I don't care for it.

I think I'll keep Fracture for when I have the chance to apply DoTs but am going to have to back off for a little right after for whatever reason. One example of what I mean would be Diabolos in Lost City of Amdapoor. YOu've got plenty of time to intentionally apply all your DoTs before getting sucked into the doors, allowing all of them to be ticking damage on Diabolos while you're unable to attack directly. It may not add much, but it's still more damage output than you would have without fracture in such situations.

I'm also still not convinced that DoTs aren't affected by the piercing resist debuff.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I'm also still not convinced that DoTs aren't affected by the piercing resist debuff.

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Use phlebotomize on a target dummy, note the ticks.

Hit is with disembowel, and then phlebotomize it and then note the ticks.

Also the issue with dots clipping only happened when you tried to clip a stronger dot with a weaker one, as the stronger one will not be overwritten. You might not have noticed it because you used a rotation that didn't end up clipping dots, or you just didn't try to replace a buffed or stronger dot with a weaker one enough to notice or etc.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I think I'll keep Fracture for when I have the chance to apply DoTs but am going to have to back off for a little right after for whatever reason. One example of what I mean would be Diabolos in Lost City of Amdapoor. YOu've got plenty of time to intentionally apply all your DoTs before getting sucked into the doors, allowing all of them to be ticking damage on Diabolos while you're unable to attack directly. It may not add much, but it's still more damage output than you would have without fracture in such situations.

I'm also still not convinced that DoTs aren't affected by the piercing resist debuff.

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You get more damage refreshing a half-done Phlebotomize (Phleb at 2 ticks dealt: 220, technically more because the initial 170 benefits from Disembowel more than Fracture's initial 100) than a full duration Fracture. In your specific example.

Your perception of damage output depends on whether you value damage/GCD (for which Fracture is the worst thing we have short of Feint and Piercing Talon) or just "doing damage". The latter generally only matters for burst situations where a weaker mob will not live for longer than X GCDs. So you crunch what the optimal order is for X moves. This is not the case for Diabolos or bosses in general.

Here, I did it for you.

http://www.twitch.tv/yanorsomething/b/531811659

Note that the ticks with and without disembowel hits the same with a 3 damage variance.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You get more damage refreshing a half-done Phlebotomize (Phleb at 2 ticks dealt: 220, technically more because the initial 170 benefits from Disembowel more than Fracture's initial 100) than a full duration Fracture. In your specific example.

Your perception of damage output depends on whether you value damage/GCD (for which Fracture is the worst thing we have short of Feint and Piercing Talon) or just "doing damage". The latter generally only matters for burst situations where a weaker mob will not live for longer than X GCDs. So you crunch what the optimal order is for X moves. This is not the case for Diabolos or bosses in general.

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What I meant is situations where you know what's coming and you have time to throw on all 3 DoTs (CT, Phleb, and Fracture) before the "downtime" occurs, so you have the most possible damage occurring during the "downtime" where you can't be attacking. If you don't have time for all 3, then yeah, I can see how it would be beneficial to refresh Phlebotomize rather than add Fracture. Diabolos was the best example I could think of where you definitively have time to refresh DoTs already on him -and- throw on Fracture as well.

@rickyguo, ty, I haven't had a chance to log in, so couldn't check it for myself yet. So, is the same true for monk's Dragon Kick + DoTs, war's Storm's Eye + DoTs, and Foe Requiem + magic DoTs?

I would not say acc cap is 500 for t9 because you miss on golems sometimes.

How do I make animus glow even when not drawn??

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

How do I make animus glow even when not drawn??

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Make a macro
/bm
/sit
/wait 1
/sit

So I got this nice looking piece of equipment "High Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming" :P To be honest, until now, I didn’t bother to check the exact stats weight value. So I did some math after the drop and I was a bit disappointed to notice that, according to stats weight, even the “Weathered” version Astrum Armguards seems better.

Tell me if I'm doing anything wrong down here:

Weathered Astrum Armguards: STR 21 - CHR 23 - DET 11 | 21 + (23*0.204) + (11*0.325) = 29.267

High Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming: STR 24 – CHR 18 | 24 + (18*0.204) = 27.672

So, since I don’t need that extra accuracy on the H.A. Gauntlets *at the moment* I think they’re basically…. useless?

Here’s my actual equip http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2245036/ and consider that I only got that piece of High Allagan. Any suggestion about some changes?

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Originally Posted by Lucael_Shikaree

Tell me if I'm doing anything wrong down here:

Weathered Astrum Armguards: STR 21 - CHR 23 - DET 11 | 21 + (23*0.204) + (11*0.325) = 29.267

High Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming: STR 24 – CHR 18 | 24 + (18*0.204) = 27.672

So, since I don’t need that extra accuracy on the H.A. Gauntlets *at the moment* I think they’re basically…. useless?

Here’s my actual equip http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2245036/ and consider that I only got that piece of High Allagan. Any suggestion about some changes?

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Honestly, a lot of the high allagan pieces are really badly itemized. You can probably use it for t8+ where you need 49x accuracy, but until then, it's better to use the weathered astrum armguards until you get like the i110+ spears without accuracy.

Well....I've had the wolfram tassets and mask made. I've been lucky enough to get them both pentamelded for less than 500K with materia I had on hand. Looking at Lucael_Shikaree's pentamelded wolfram cuirass has convinced me to obtain that next. Now that I'm out of materia, though, I don't look forward to pentamelding it...

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Well....I've had the wolfram tassets and mask made. I've been lucky enough to get them both pentamelded for less than 500K with materia I had on hand. Looking at Lucael_Shikaree's pentamelded wolfram cuirass has convinced me to obtain that next. Now that I'm out of materia, though, I don't look forward to pentamelding it...

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I'm really not so sure its worth it. I mean, I want it to be, because farming for it would give me something to do, and our High Allagan chest drops in T9, but crunching the numbers it just doesn't seem to be worth it to me. The Wyrm's Mail (i90 Myth) has a stat weight of 41.696 while a Wolfram with Crit+33 & Det+6 would have a weight of 43.207. That is basically only 1½ STR more than Wyrms, which granted is better, but you would need to overmeld a grade 4 materia into slots 3 AND 4, which could be a financial disaster if you got unlucky. I suppose it could make it ok to use if you needed the acc, or could replace another item with a non-acc item, but that would depends on the items you have available and could change depending on your next drops.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

I'm really not so sure its worth it.

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Don't forget that it looks neat.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

I'm really not so sure its worth it. I mean, I want it to be, because farming for it would give me something to do, and our High Allagan chest drops in T9, but crunching the numbers it just doesn't seem to be worth it to me. The Wyrm's Mail (i90 Myth) has a stat weight of 41.696 while a Wolfram with Crit+33 & Det+6 would have a weight of 43.207. That is basically only 1½ STR more than Wyrms, which granted is better, but you would need to overmeld a grade 4 materia into slots 3 AND 4, which could be a financial disaster if you got unlucky. I suppose instead of adding crit, you could add Accuracy, but would that be any better?

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The cuirass already has 34 accuracy on it so you can't add to it. Try to get to 23 Det then meld straight crit. Would have to be all IV materia to cap. $$$

That's what I did, sorta.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The cuirass already has 34 accuracy on it so you can't add to it. Try to get to 23 Det then meld straight crit. Would have to be all IV materia to cap. $$$

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Yea thats what I mean, huge dollar signs lol. Det IV and Crit IV are 100%, but then you would still have room for 3 Crit IVs, which on my server run for about 90k+ each, and at less than 15% chance of success that seams VERY expensive. When you look at it, your basically paying that much money for 34 acc. So I guess it depends on what items you currently have if its worth it or not.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The cuirass already has 34 accuracy on it so you can't add to it. Try to get to 23 Det then meld straight crit. Would have to be all IV materia to cap. $$$

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Yea thats what I mean, huge dollar signs lol. Det IV and Crit IV are 100%, but then you would still have room for 3 Crit IVs, which on my server run for about 90k+ each, and at less than 15% chance of success that seems VERY expensive. When you look at it, your basically paying that much money for 34 acc. So I guess it depends on what items you currently have if its worth it or not.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

That's what I did, sorta.

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Ah nice, not to grasp at straws, but you wasted the last meld. A crit 1 materia would have netted you 0.404 weight as opposed to the 0.325 weight of 1 DET. You could have even squeezed a Grade II materia in that slot with relative ease. But your stat weight is only 0.6874 higher than mine, so we are basically even. If you could convert that excess 14 accuracy into something (cap is 510 right?) then the gap would get larger. But thats the point I'm trying to make. The crafted body is only good if you can make use of the ACC on it. At least in my opinion.

Yeah I was kind of at wit's end by then.

I'm personally a little lost on upgrades for dragoon at this point. One of our old raid members came back recently and is going to main war tank, which I have been doing for the last 3 or 4 months. Now that we have a good chunk of people through t5 I might be going back to Dragoon for 2nd coil, but I need to upgrade a bit since SMN has been my main dps class since we had several other capable dragoons.

I'd ultimately like the get the Levi spear, but until then the Allagan spear is what I'm after since t5 is almost laughably easy now. My weakest piece at the moment is the allagan pants, but I need the accuracy on those especially if I get the Allagan spear. Levi spear would help more, then I could upgrade the pants and keep the Wyrm's mail for now. The Levi spear + w. Astrum hose seems to be a much better trade off then Allagan spear + w. Astrum mail. Right now I'm at 486 accuracy which is close to perfect for 2nd coil, I can drop 10-15 but really don't want to drop ~40.

Oh well, about the Cuirass... it all depends from play style and attitude as a player. If you have the patience to farm, then go for it. If you're not, no big deal: we know that the pentameld chest is not "necessary" at all. About the financial crisis, I've never been rich and when I started the belt, body and head my budget was like 600k. With one Spiritbond set (I was forced to buy pieces, since as you can see I have not crafting job levelled) you can get a Materia IV (det, chr and acc are in the same price range on my server 120-200k, sometimes I got two in the same set), or do full or half money to buy one. Plus the myth items helped a bit. I think, anyway, it depends from your server prices and economy that can really make the difference in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Right now I'm at 486 accuracy which is close to perfect for 2nd coil, I can drop 10-15 but really don't want to drop ~40.

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You need around 472 flank/rear for T6 and T7 (but I'm still working on it) and the High Allagan pieces you're going to take in the process will boost your accuracy. What about Gae Bolg Animus? It will increase your dps and give you a huge boost on accuracy that will help you a lot in the first second coil turns.

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Originally Posted by Lucael_Shikaree

You need around 472 flank/rear for T6 and T7 (but I'm still working on it) and the High Allagan pieces you're going to take in the process will boost your accuracy. What about Gae Bolg Animus? It will increase your dps and give you a huge boost on accuracy that will help you a lot in the first second coil turns.

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Animus isn't a terrible upgrade, 'cept I'm super far behind on that. Only got 3 atmas so far lol

Only 472 for the first two, eh? I've been seeing 493 everywhere so that's what I was aiming for.

Hopefully Levi unlocked in DF won't be terrible.. I rarely see groups up and when I do they are always farm parties, I've got the basics down, been to the blue orbs a couple of times but no clear, so I don't want to be "that guy" joining the farm party lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Hopefully Levi unlocked in DF won't be terrible.. I rarely see groups up and when I do they are always farm parties, I've got the basics down, been to the blue orbs a couple of times but no clear, so I don't want to be "that guy" joining the farm party lol

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Dashes follow the tail. If you're fighting the tail in the NE corner, the first dash will be from the N or E side of the deck, the second dash will be from the S or W side of the deck. This means you only have to focus one corner at a time, makes recognizing dashes very easy. Beyond that just focus on not getting splashed to death. Get your clear by being very careful and worry about maximizing DPS once you've got the mechanics down. I always fake it til I make it (albeit usually very quickly) in farm parties.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

Dashes follow the tail. If you're fighting the tail in the NE corner, the first dash will be from the N or E side of the deck, the second dash will be from the S or W side of the deck. This means you only have to focus one corner at a time, makes recognizing dashes very easy. Beyond that just focus on not getting splashed to death. Get your clear by being very careful and worry about maximizing DPS once you've got the mechanics down. I always fake it til I make it (albeit usually very quickly) in farm parties.

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Somebody had mentioned something like that but I didn't quite follow what they were saying. Thanks Jet, I'll start paying more attention to that xD

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

I'm really not so sure its worth it.

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Neither the high allagan spear or liberator have accuracy on it. Accuracy does become an issue (for me at least) if I want to continue using Buttons over Deviled Eggs. The wolfram cuirass will have a little lower accuracy over the astrum chestpiece but will have a higher dps potential. For me, it'll work nicely as I continue to mix n' match gear to suit the situation.

Side note : At least spirit binding for the materia is a decent way to level my chocobo.

Question:

For whatever reason I was thinking that if power surge was increased to 80 sec CD it would allow us to use Jump on CD instead of waiting for PS. (I always tend to wait for PS to use Jump) After running a 320 sec hypothetical, it looks like there is actually no need to change the CD. From what I can see, over the 320 sec period, it's about 400 more potency to use Jump on CD as it is now, you still use Jump every 40 and PS every 80 (as if the CD as 80 instead of 60).

Do you guys use Jump on CD instead of waiting for PS? I think I'm going to just start using on CD, as it seems to be a damage boost (400 potency/320 sec) vs waiting for PS.

I have always used Jump on CD, and followed up off CD of Power Surge with Spineshatter

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Question:

Do you guys use Jump on CD instead of waiting for PS? I think I'm going to just start using on CD, as it seems to be a damage boost (400 potency/320 sec) vs waiting for PS.

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Lost now, but at one point in this thread either Ayvar, Dervy, EasymodeX, or one of the other theorycrafters/mathmaticians did a calcuation showing you lose overall dps waiting to sync.

It's pretty self-explanatory: the faster you use cooldowns, the faster you get them back, the more damage you do. I use PS for whatever jump's available.

Yea.. Not quite sure why I was doing it like that, habit I guess. I've realized that there is another part of my rotation that needed correction so I've been working on that too. Just finding all these little things after getting back into dragoon.