Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Seriousy stop trying to force everyone to be how you want them to be.

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Uneducatable is harsh, but stubborn isn't. You are playing the game wrong by definition of the developers (see: DPS skills, hall of novice, cleric stance's existance, low healing requirements, and an MH/OH setup for raiding), and you refuse to DPS... on principle? I understand not being able to because you aren't skilled enough yet, but you are actively telling the community and the developers that they are wrong and you are right. It is gang up feyona time because very few people agree with you and you should maybe take that on board. You are a SCH you have a fairy that does half the work, your base class is literally a DPS and you get shadowflare, 3 DoTs and bane from it, as well as broil during HW, those are really good skills that are there to be used, and can easily with skills like rouse (i.e. the downtime creating skill).

Please take a long hard look at your "playstyle" (i don't even want to call it that because it validates it as a practice) and see that you are just playing badly on purpose, and I feel bad for anyone who gets paired up with you in DF (because yes, your playstyle does affect others).

Also Dunning-Kruger effect is accurate.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Dunning-kruger effect right there. And it seems like you did forget what I posted at the very start of the topic.

Edit:
Also, may I point out it's a rather hypocrite statement you're making there. Aren't you also trying to force a certain opinion on others with/in this topic?

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This isnt the place for a discussion on psychology really and only amateurs label conditions outside the correct context. You could say that I was asking for a solution rather than force anyone do do what I want. I didnt even expect anyone to agree that it could actually be possible to have a choice
but at least I have given my views and that was the intention.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Uneducatable is harsh, but stubborn isn't. You are playing the game wrong by definition of the developers (see: DPS skills, hall of novice, cleric stance's existance, low healing requirements, and an MH/OH setup for raiding), and you refuse to DPS... on principle?

Please take a long hard look at your "playstyle" (i don't even want to call it that because it validates it as a practice) and see that you are just playing badly on purpose, and I feel bad for anyone who gets paired up with you in DF (because yes, your playstyle does affect others).

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When have I ever said anywhere that I refuse to dps, I so surprised that you even can say that after a discussion about me being in cleric yesterday. Plus all the other posts of me saying I do what the group wants, and do it pretty well, like 4 commends on sophia, so I just dont see the point of that post at all. abd if you want to throw psychological terms around I can think of a few myself as I do have an education, but was taught not to because it can have a very detrmental effect , you could say its even aggressive towards others, simply its avoided in practice. And you are certainly not qualified to make assessments on here plus you are wrong .

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Originally Posted by Feyona

When have I ever said anywhere that I refuse to dps, I so surprised that you even can say that after a discussion about me being in cleric yesterday. Plus all the other posts of me saying I do what the group wants, and do it pretty well, like 4 commends on sophia, so I just dont see the point of that post at all

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Here it is again where you bring up your own experience and treat it as the only fact. Yes, it's a fact and that you know. But it doesn't make it an absolute one. On page 61 I've pointed out to you that your own experience doesn't sustain itself as a proper argument. And you've responded with:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

With respect your experience isnt mine, and I will bring to the table whatever experience I like or is that not an option as well?

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I'll bounce that back at you: If someone else has the exact opposite experience and opinion of you, doesn't that make your own argument invalid as well? You're not making any sense with what you're trying to bring by including experiences and opinions you approve and disapproving the opposite. This is on par with the vaccination causes autism meme.

So I'll re-iterate; you wanted an open minded discussion, but you're not presenting being open minded yourself. And again, for the past 67 pages, you've only been presenting your own experience and assumptions with no facts to back them up. This isn't even a discussion anymore. It's just headbutting where two groups with different opinions collide. The developers introduced the Hall of the Novice with a hint that damage contribution is possible. It's in an extremely gray area, however. But the very least this kind of evidence has more value than baseless assumptions where "healers aren't meant to deal damage". Be it by developer intention or community adaption.

And no, it's not a place to discuss psychology. But I hope the very least it opened your eyes on how selective your bias is in this "discussion"

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Originally Posted by Feyona

When have I ever said anywhere that I refuse to dps, I so surprised that you even can say that after a discussion about me being in cleric yesterday. Plus all the other posts of me saying I do what the group wants, and do it pretty well, like 4 commends on sophia, so I just dont see the point of that post at all

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The thing is, you have flip flopped around this issue for 68 pages now, saying you do DPS on one page, and saying that healers shouldn't be expected to DPS on another. Either you do care about healer DPS or you don't, please make your mind up and don't tell people to refer to page 42 when you said something else on page 63.

If you do DPS then well done, you know how to play healer, if you don't then I reiterate my previous point.

Just to show I'm not favouring or being unjust:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The thing is, you have flip flopped around this issue for 68 pages now, saying you do DPS on one page, and saying that healers shouldn't be expected to DPS on another. Either you do care about healer DPS or you don't, please make your mind up and don't tell people to refer to page 42 when you said something else on page 63.

If you do DPS then well done, you know how to play healer, if you don't then I reiterate my previous point.

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Feyona's hoping that the community would be more tolerant to those who like to heal only and those who like to be the "omnipotent healer". But this got somewhat lost in translation throughout the discussion the moment "developer intent" and "my experience" vs "your experience" got thrown in.

There are plenty who accept them or tolerate them. But those who don't tolerate the other two ends of the spectrum fail to realise their opposing standpoint.
In case of healer-only-healer: How can the others tell the difference whether you don't like to deal damage or whether you are lazy?
In case of healers-MUST-do-more: How can you tell whether the healer is comfortable with it or not?

Someone mentioned somewhere between 3 to 5 pages back that everyone should contribute an equal amount of effort. In a way, I do agree with this, as it is equal treatment as everyone puts out equal effort. Sadly, equality does not directly translate into justice.

I've been lurking on this post for a while and I just want to say this: people on these forums seem to have a really hard time keeping things within the context of the opening post.

The main question: Should healers be allowed to play how they want?

The overarching answer: Yes! Yes! Shout it to the mountain, YES!!! We can all sit here and say that every player in every role has the right to play how they want regardless of how it may effect others.

BUT BUT BUT, people need to understand that SE has given us the power to remove those we do not find acceptable based on playstyle.

All I can say is that if you are playing a class and find yourself being kicked a lot it may be time to take a hard look at yourself or get yourself a static.

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Originally Posted by LuckiGoLucki

All I can say is that if you are playing a class and find yourself being kicked a lot it may be time to take a hard look at yourself or get yourself a static.

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Allow me to open by quoting myself:

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

This is a case of illusion of choice or Hobson's Fork to be more precise. Hobson's fork was a form of illusion of choice that you either take what was offered or get nothing at all (in it's simplest form). The kind of situation you're experiencing is very similar: You either participate as how majority wants to or you don't participate at all.

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What you wrote there is in essence Hobson's Fork. The very fact that this illusion of choice is around undermines the very purpose of this topic. The healer DPS meta is a concept that the community has accepted. Which is both a form of democracy, where the majority decides, as well as a form of dictatorship. This topic has already hit a wall before it even started and I believe the past 60+ pages has proven it.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Here it is again where you bring up your own experience and treat it as the only fact. Yes, it's a fact and that you know. But it doesn't make it an absolute


And no, it's not a place to discuss psychology. But I hope the very least it opened your eyes on how selective your bias is in this "discussion"

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well I did actually add that or was trying to say, that it doesnt matter who has what exprience, but that to bring another experience to the table doesnt make the other null and void. Its just each have different experiences, I just may have thought that was obvious, but I was wrong it wasnt obvious, but I have been taught to value everyone's experience. Kitfox made the statement that if you try people wont kick you and I simply stated my experience differed. As for the discussion, I thought I had been pretyy consistan that I wanted choice, and explained the reasons why.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

well I did actually add that or was trying to say, that it doesnt matter who has what exprience, but that to bring another experience to the table doesnt make the other null and void. Its just each have different experiences, I just may have thought that was obvious, but I was wrong it wasnt obvious, but I have been taught to value everyone's experience. Kitfox made the statement that if you try people wont kick you and I simply stated my experience differed. As for the discussion, I thought I had been pretyy consistan that I wanted choice, and explained the reasons why.

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There is a thing about quantity and quality. If you bring enough statements in the same line in a large enough sample, then you have an argument that can be sustained through quantity. But this has to be a significant sample size before it can be considered "objective" while you do not filter out the opposing opinion and experience so you can have a comparison. Bringing evidence on the table would be in the quality category and serves a much stronger foothold for you to debate anything. It's not even the case of obvious or not or whether your message got through. It's a case of debate etiquette where you present proper evidence and backed facts. And not own personal opinions. Doing the latter will only result in an endless loop of going back and forth as the previous 60+ pages has proven. And at the moment I'm in a loop myself as you don't seem to realise the importance of providing proper evidence in a debate. So, once again, your experience treated and presented as a fact has no place in any argument as the opposite can and will be thrown back at you. Unless, as mentioned before, it's quantifiable with a reasonable sample size.