Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

When was the last time any healer got a skill that felt like it was actively building off something else to give a coherent playstyle where you both enjoy pressing the new skill and also pressing older skills in order to get to said new skill (like how paradox makes the entire astral fire phase better or the spellblade combo made confitier better)

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Afflatus misery and to some extent Recitation come to my mind. They are two examples of skills that, due to interactions with the kit, help to recontextualize already existing tools and something the devs should lean much harder into. I'd rather have 6 heals and 3 skills that give those already existing 6 new ways to be used rather than 9 heals that have barely any mechanical implication other than being dps neutral or not at a base level.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Being reported for insulting is well deserved. But suggested to watch a guide? Is that even an offense?

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Those would not be separate instances, they first insulted them, followed by telling them to go watch a guide. Then they would come here and complain about being reported just because they told someone to watch a guide.

Gotta make a prediction of the job trailer for whm and it's going to be cure 2, lily usage, the new animation for the filler and the dot and 2 new actions.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Gotta make a prediction of the job trailer for whm and it's going to be cure 2, lily usage, the new animation for the filler and the dot and 2 new actions.

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I'll do you one better. Single target Misery.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Gotta make a prediction of the job trailer for whm and it's going to be cure 2, lily usage, the new animation for the filler and the dot and 2 new actions.

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Don't forget the 10 potency increase on Holy 4.

I’m really just ready to see any real information on job details. It feels like pins and needles waiting to see what happens.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I’m really just ready to see any real information on job details. It feels like pins and needles waiting to see what happens.

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Unless we're getting an actual overhaul of how the jobs play like in ShB, I expect the media tour/live letter to go a lot like the EW one where they have 1-2 bullet points for the healers with fairly worthless info like "Healing responsiveness has been improved" or "New [Insert non WHM healer job here] action is a powerful shield" as they quickly rush through the slide to talk about what really matters for 15+ minutes: An ability being slightly altered on Black Mage and how excruitatingly painful the discussions and debates about it were. So I would imagine we're probably going to be waiting for very close to release to see if anything's actually changed.

They do really like to wait till it's too late to change anything before revealing anything, huh?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Unless we're getting an actual overhaul of how the jobs play like in ShB, I expect the media tour/live letter to go a lot like the EW one where they have 1-2 bullet points for the healers with fairly worthless info like "Healing responsiveness has been improved" or "New [Insert non WHM healer job here] action is a powerful shield" as they quickly rush through the slide to talk about what really matters for 15+ minutes: An ability being slightly altered on Black Mage and how excruitatingly painful the discussions and debates about it were. So I would imagine we're probably going to be waiting for very close to release to see if anything's actually changed.

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Hey guys don’t you want to hear the 25 minute presentation on how the extra 5 potency on xenoglossy 2 will make it so you can create 4,000 new lines that nobody will ever actually use

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

They do really like to wait till it's too late to change anything before revealing anything, huh?

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I assume they're still mad about all the negative feedback when they revealed Stormblood lilies early on. Maybe there wouldn't be so much negative feedback if they actually understand how players are playing the healer role and actually put some thought into the design.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I assume they're still mad about all the negative feedback when they revealed Stormblood lilies early on. Maybe there wouldn't be so much negative feedback if they actually understand how players are playing the healer role and actually put some thought into the design.

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It would help if SB lilies weren’t literally the single worst thing the design team ever created

They bought that down upon themselves

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I assume they're still mad about all the negative feedback when they revealed Stormblood lilies early on. Maybe there wouldn't be so much negative feedback if they actually understand how players are playing the healer role and actually put some thought into the design.

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So much for the “Please give us your feedback!”-speech lmao.

StB Lilies at its rawest concept wasn't even a necessarily terrible idea IMHO (as in, using lily system as a resource to maintain AND spend rather than the latter only). Taking their idea as a basis, I conceived something along the line of the following:

1. Each Lily increases damage dealt by 3%, healing magic potency by 15%, and increases healing magic radius by 3y.
2. 3rd Lily reduce cast time by 12%
3. Lily timer is back at 30s. They will continue to tick even after 3rd lily is up.
4. All GCD spells benefits from the accumulated lilies. Yes, Cure II can become a concentrated powerful AoE heal ala old Cure III. Current Cure III can be expanded.
5. Lily spells also benefits the same, but using them consumes the lilies so any subsequent heals will become weaker. Non-lily GCD do not spend those lilies but MP cost are hefty.

Obviously that’s not all. I.e. plenary would’ve been deleted because the baked in potencies would kinda already do more or less the same result. The list goes on but I don’t want to flood.

But yeah ofc lmao they’d never understood the issue with that trash fire old system was the generation & its reward from interacting with the system. Y’know what? Let’s just wait till it’s too late to give feedback or whatsoever. Please look forward for next change in 3 years.

Addersting is the new SB lilies. An impossibly small maybe DPS gain if you’re otherwise forced to move for 5 seconds straight or more attached to almost the worst heals on your hotbar. Not a far jump from the impossibly small maybe DPS gain earned from an extra Assize usage earned from cooldown reduction generated by the almost worst heals on your hotbar (the actual worst if we’re talking about launch SB lilies).

I mean ultimately, healers take longer to kill things than any other role and the vast majority of enemies hit like small children to the point that the only jobs even threatened by most things are DPS roles, so it isn't exactly the role people play to have fun when off on their own. That alone is one major reason why healers are sort of unfun in this system. It's also why I'm not the biggest fan of the trinity system because unless the world is more dangerous and people can actually die from overworld enemies, playing anything other than a strict damage dealer is pointless. The only reason the roles are even needed is because of dungeon requirements and very specific attacks from enemies that only show up in dungeons.

Also this literally has been the expansion where people can complete expert roulette and other instanced fights without ever bringing a healer at all. The role is completely forgettable and redundant.

The big thing for me about stormblood lilies was that at no point during that expansion did they ever try to make it better in any shape or form for the most part. The best you got was in 4.05 when cure 1 went from 50 percent to 100 percent. Then in all the later patches, they basically admitted defeat when they took divine bension from needing a lily to be used and then in 4.5 when they super buffed Assize with the cd going from 60 to 45 and damage and heal potency from 300 to 400 to go along with all the enmity reductions that they finally give to whm in 4.5 after years of ignoring those requests along with the buff to plenary.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

The big thing for me about stormblood lilies was that at no point during that expansion did they ever try to make it better in any shape or form for the most part. The best you got was in 4.05 when cure 1 went from 50 percent to 100 percent. Then in all the later patches, they basically admitted defeat when they took divine bension from needing a lily to be used and then in 4.5 when they super buffed Assize with the cd going from 60 to 45 and damage and heal potency from 300 to 400 to go along with all the enmity reductions that they finally give to whm in 4.5 after years of ignoring those requests along with the buff to plenary.

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We haven't even talked about Plenary lately. OG Plenary was, I would say, even worse than the lilies. But to be honest, I feel this all also applies to Addersting. There's been 0 effort to do anything about it. They knew no one was generating any Addersting which is why they have you start with 3 at the beginning of an instance, because those are very likely the only 3 you'll ever use, if you even do. But that isn't a solution. And to add salt to the wound, PVP Addersting works exactly as how it was described by Yoshi P before EW launched. They know how to make a good Addersting, but they aren't either as a blatant insult to players who criticized healer design in Shadowbringers since Addersting and Toxikon are what were given to Sage to try and respond to that criticism, which we can infer based on Yoshi P's description, or they're that out of touch with how healers actually play that they remade the same mistake of locking resource generation behind your dinky GCD heals that no decent Sage actually uses outside of EX/Savage/Ultimate prog.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We haven't even talked about Plenary lately. OG Plenary was, I would say, even worse than the lilies. But to be honest, I feel this all also applies to Addersting. There's been 0 effort to do anything about it. They knew no one was generating any Addersting which is why they have you start with 3 at the beginning of an instance, because those are very likely the only 3 you'll ever use, if you even do. But that isn't a solution. And to add salt to the wound, PVP Addersting works exactly as how it was described by Yoshi P before EW launched. They know how to make a good Addersting, but they aren't either as a blatant insult to players who criticized healer design in Shadowbringers since Addersting and Toxikon are what were given to Sage to try and respond to that criticism, which we can infer based on Yoshi P's description, or they're that out of touch with how healers actually play that they remade the same mistake of locking resource generation behind your dinky GCD heals that no decent Sage actually uses outside of EX/Savage/Ultimate prog.

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I feel like it isn't touched upon enough how sloppy Sage was at EW launch; you had to wait a full minute to get full Addersgall vs SCH hitting Aetherflow immediately and having full stacks, you had to do really stupid prepull individual shields on people and hope that they would break to get Addersting, Holos sucked, Eukrasian Diagnosis didn't grant Addersting at all, etc. Everyone who mains a healer knows that the devs don't really care, but the fact that they put so little effort into the new job feeling good right out of the gate was really telling for me. Of course, this isn't anything new, every expansion drop has a healer that ends up in a bad state relatively to where it was the previous expansion; but they didn't even seem to do basic thinking of how to make its job systems work or at least have parity with Scholar since it's clearly just copied homework in that regard. That's why I enthusiastically describe it as "Scholar but worse" because it's not "SCH but QoL" it's a design philosophy of "How can we take as much from Scholar as possible and change it to seem different without thinking of why it works this way for SCH?"

As it stands Addersting is pretty bad. The only 'upside' I can list for it is the fact that it makes your shields cost 500 MP instead of 900, but saving the MP cost of a Dosis is really not anything good comparative to how bad it works to begin with. But there's really nothing they can work with for Sage as long as they're keeping the philosophy of 'not wanting to pressure new healers to do DPS so we won't be adding more DPS actions', because for some reason, teaching bad fundamentals that run contrary to how the game itself is designed is considered good game design when it comes to healers in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I feel like it isn't touched upon enough how sloppy Sage was at EW launch; you had to wait a full minute to get full Addersgall vs SCH hitting Aetherflow immediately and having full stacks, you had to do really stupid prepull individual shields on people and hope that they would break to get Addersting, Holos sucked, Eukrasian Diagnosis didn't grant Addersting at all, etc. Everyone who mains a healer knows that the devs don't really care, but the fact that they put so little effort into the new job feeling good right out of the gate was really telling for me. Of course, this isn't anything new, every expansion drop has a healer that ends up in a bad state relatively to where it was the previous expansion; but they didn't even seem to do basic thinking of how to make its job systems work or at least have parity with Scholar since it's clearly just copied homework in that regard. That's why I enthusiastically describe it as "Scholar but worse" because it's not "SCH but QoL" it's a design philosophy of "How can we take as much from Scholar as possible and change it to seem different without thinking of why it works this way for SCH?"

As it stands Addersting is pretty bad. The only 'upside' I can list for it is the fact that it makes your shields cost 500 MP instead of 900, but saving the MP cost of a Dosis is really not anything good comparative to how bad it works to begin with. But there's really nothing they can work with for Sage as long as they're keeping the philosophy of 'not wanting to pressure new healers to do DPS so we won't be adding more DPS actions', because for some reason, teaching bad fundamentals that run contrary to how the game itself is designed is considered good game design when it comes to healers in FFXIV.

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The thing that's so infuriating to me is they made PVP Sage. They know how to make infinitely more fun with the same exact buttons we have now: Far more frequent uses of Eukrasian Dosis and Phlegma, Pnuema is actually an attack and a satisfying burst of damage and mitigation, Toxikon isn't a horrid joke... That's a pretty damn decent starting point if that were PVE Sage.

Man it really is hilarious to think that the first iteration of plenary was really bad and that honestly should of been a clue that they can be really damn clueless about how healers are play in actual content.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Man it really is hilarious to think that the first iteration of plenary was really bad and that honestly should of been a clue that they can be really damn clueless about how healers are play in actual content.

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The first iteration of Plenary was actually nice to have for exactly one mechanic, Neverwhere in O4S P2. It's really funny that they created a job ability that's usable for exactly one mechanic in the entire game at the time.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The first iteration of Plenary was actually nice to have for exactly one mechanic, Neverwhere in O4S P2. It's really funny that they created a job ability that's usable for exactly one mechanic in the entire game at the time.

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Well actually the first iterantion of PI was that it could only be gained via cure 1 and cure 2 with a 20 percent chance. Then it stacks were based on potency of 400 to 500 to 600 with a cd of 15 seconds. This of course was just the chance of getting them was too low and you had to use single target heals in order to get them

Seriously I just don’t get the logic at all, in HW GCD AOE healing was still rather common because of the limited number of oGCD’s and the lack of weave space but single target GCD healing had been falling out of favour ever since thordan was about the last boss to have dangerous autos, even today in this weird healer situation we have where some people just refuse to press damage buttons they are still more likely to spam medica 2 than cure 2.

The system still would have been bad but why didn’t they make it proc off cure 3, medica and medica 2, for example I could actually see a use for old plenary and old lily’s in mechanics like Garuda cleanses or kefka’s 759185819 white hole mechanics if plenary procced off AOE heals and AOE heals allowed you to use assize and asylum more often

But literally nobody was GCD single target healing since about coils, I don’t see how they could have missed that so badly, like the modern meta you can justify why it exists (even if it’s bad) I literally can not invent a justification for SB lily’s or plenary

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Well actually the first iterantion of PI was that it could only be gained via cure 1 and cure 2 with a 20 percent chance. Then it stacks were based on potency of 400 to 500 to 600 with a cd of 15 seconds. This of course was just the chance of getting them was too low and you had to use single target heals in order to get them

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Right, I forgot about the launch version. That one made no sense, using a single target heal to stack an AoE heal is just weird.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Seriously I just don’t get the logic at all, in HW GCD AOE healing was still rather common because of the limited number of oGCD’s and the lack of weave space but single target GCD healing had been falling out of favour ever since thordan was about the last boss to have dangerous autos, even today in this weird healer situation we have where some people just refuse to press damage buttons they are still more likely to spam medica 2 than cure 2.

The system still would have been bad but why didn’t they make it proc off cure 3, medica and medica 2, for example I could actually see a use for old plenary and old lily’s in mechanics like Garuda cleanses or kefka’s 759185819 white hole mechanics if plenary procced off AOE heals and AOE heals allowed you to use assize and asylum more often

But literally nobody was GCD single target healing since about coils, I don’t see how they could have missed that so badly, like the modern meta you can justify why it exists (even if it’s bad) I literally can not invent a justification for SB lily’s or plenary

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You are talking about a dev team that also thinks that SCH used to sit in Cleric Stance for the entire fight and forced the WHM to do all of the healing. :)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Right, I forgot about the launch version. That one made no sense, using a single target heal to stack an AoE heal is just weird.



You are talking about a dev team that also thinks that SCH used to sit in Cleric Stance for the entire fight and forced the WHM to do all of the healing. :)

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To be fair in ARR while that wasn’t exactly true it wasn’t really untrue either, rather than being defined as shield and regen in ARR they were more like “single target and AOE healer”

Seeing the SCH sit in cleric stance for long periods of time and use percentage lustrate on the tank and throw down soils who’s mitigation was unaffected by cleric stance while the WHM was in charge of more powerful AOE healing (also partially because SCH’s AOE healing was hot garbage in ARR) wasn’t uncommon, people overestimate how much SCH could avoid swapping out of cleric stance (especially when they removed the percentage heal on lustrate) but I’m more willing to forgive them that mantra than whatever led to SB lily’s

Again, I can only continue to draw parallels to Sage's Addersting and Toxikon. A resource originally obtained only from single target barrier application, eventually assigned to AOE as well after realizing just how little players actively use single target healing, and for a reward that continues to be highly inconsequential considering the payment required to earn it. Mobility might not be nothing, but it certainly isn't something when it comes at the cost of a full GCD's worth of DPS anyway, and the weave window it provides is now largely a vestigial trait since EW streamlined all basic healer attacks to have a built-in weave window with every filler cast. It's not like you need Toxikon to comfortably weave outside of E. Dosis or Phlegma casts.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be fair in ARR while that wasn’t exactly true it wasn’t really untrue either, rather than being defined as shield and regen in ARR they were more like “single target and AOE healer”

Seeing the SCH sit in cleric stance for long periods of time and use percentage lustrate on the tank and throw down soils who’s mitigation was unaffected by cleric stance while the WHM was in charge of more powerful AOE healing (also partially because SCH’s AOE healing was hot garbage in ARR) wasn’t uncommon, people overestimate how much SCH could avoid swapping out of cleric stance (especially when they removed the percentage heal on lustrate) but I’m more willing to forgive them that mantra than whatever led to SB lily’s

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To be fair, I can see why they would think there would be more emphasis on single target heals in SB. Look at the fights, O4S P2 had 3 different tankbusters (Aero III, Earthshakers, Double Attack), so did O8S P2 (Hyperdrive, Ultimate Embrace, Double Wings). It's very likely that they assumed tanks would get their HP chunked hard in SB (they did, kind of). But in practice, there's usually not a lot of need for single target heals because AoE heals can catch the tanks too (also regens).

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Again, I can only continue to draw parallels to Sage's Addersting and Toxikon. A resource originally obtained only from single target barrier application, eventually assigned to AOE as well after realizing just how little players actively use single target healing, and for a reward that continues to be highly inconsequential considering the payment required to earn it. Mobility might not be nothing, but it certainly isn't something when it comes at the cost of a full GCD's worth of DPS anyway, and the weave window it provides is now largely a vestigial trait since EW streamlined all basic healer attacks to have a built-in weave window with every filler cast. It's not like you need Toxikon to comfortably weave outside of E. Dosis or Phlegma casts.

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Which the funny thing is if they didn’t have the 1.5 second cast time then toxicon would actually be a useful skill because it would be the SGE equivalent to ruin 2 they could even up the potency so while it’s still a loss it’s a gain over clipping dosis, you get 2 weave slots and you get to shield someone who may need it

But they made their own skill vestigial by giving everyone infinite free weave space

Giving everybody and their mother a 1.50s cast time is quite possibly one of the worst thing they could've done to healers. It should've been AST-exclusive perk.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which the funny thing is if they didn’t have the 1.5 second cast time then toxicon would actually be a useful skill because it would be the SGE equivalent to ruin 2 they could even up the potency so while it’s still a loss it’s a gain over clipping dosis, you get 2 weave slots and you get to shield someone who may need it

But they made their own skill vestigial by giving everyone infinite free weave space

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I'd still argue locking it behind GCD healing usage is a terrible idea because it kind of invalidates the point of having a mobility tool/weave tool. Mobility and weaving exists to maximize DPS output, so requiring the player drop DPS to earn that is antithetical to the point of those tools existing in the first place. If healing were still more like ARR/HW healing in the sense that dropping DPS to heal was something you'd do regularly and an expected aspect of healing gameplay, then that might make it more worthwhile, but even still I don't think it's something that should be gated behind a resource.

ARR's Scholar having Ruin II just cost twice the MP was, in my opinion, the perfect way to handle that because it gives you agency in how to manage your mobility and weaving potential while counter-balancing them with MP management.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Seeing the SCH sit in cleric stance for long periods of time and use percentage lustrate on the tank and throw down soils who’s mitigation was unaffected by cleric stance while the WHM was in charge of more powerful AOE healing (also partially because SCH’s AOE healing was hot garbage in ARR) wasn’t uncommon, people overestimate how much SCH could avoid swapping out of cleric stance (especially when they removed the percentage heal on lustrate) but I’m more willing to forgive them that mantra than whatever led to SB lily’s

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I would've been willing to forgive them if they didn't still think that 3 expansions later. They nerfed Energy Drain's potency in the middle of Shadowbringers with their reasoning being that SCHs were spending all their Aetherflow on DPS and let the WHM do all the healing...which just showed an utter lack of knowledge.

The fact that Medica 2 is now more MP efficient for single target healing than Cure 2, a single target healing tool, shows everything that needs to be said about the dev team's understanding of healer design

It is hilariously that both medica 2 and cure 2 both share mp cost and then you have media at 900 mp which still seems like a rather high cost for that spell.

With how incredibly powerful AOE healing is, Cure II should just be Benediction to be able to compete in any capacity.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The fact that Medica 2 is now more MP efficient for single target healing than Cure 2, a single target healing tool, shows everything that needs to be said about the dev team's understanding of healer design

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"B-b-but, i-instant 800 potency heal is better than delayed 1000 potency, right?"

Well, but if WHM had to resort to using Cure II in high-end duty, something went horribly wrong already.

And in non high-end, it's just:

"o/... ...zzzZZZzzz... ...gg"

AOE healing is disgustingly powerful now, dungeons are a joke but it says something that 4 of the 5 primary heals that a SGE will use in an average dungeon pull are now AOE heals (kerechole, holos, panhaima, physis)

I’ve even noticed this actually creates conflict with newer players who think that SGE is ridiculously underpowered because the game really doesn’t make it very clear the AOE heals are totally viable as single target healing options

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I would've been willing to forgive them if they didn't still think that 3 expansions later. They nerfed Energy Drain's potency in the middle of Shadowbringers with their reasoning being that SCHs were spending all their Aetherflow on DPS and let the WHM do all the healing...which just showed an utter lack of knowledge.

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Didn’t they cited similar reasoning when they decided to remove Energy Drain entirely at early 5.0? Something something so SCH mains can focus on oh so much harder healing this expac’s raid brought in.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Didn’t they are cited similar reasoning when they decided to remove Energy Drain entirely at early 5.0? Something something so SCH mains can focus on oh so much harder healing this expac’s raid brought in.

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I can't find the exact quote, but I vaguely remember that they said they removed Energy Drain to shift focus more towards pure healing or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I can't find the exact quote, but I vaguely remember that they said they removed Energy Drain to shift focus more towards pure healing or something like that.

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I’m pretty sure the quote was “we have decided to delete energy drain so SCH can better focus on healing” then they made some vague notion that newer tiers would actually require that healing which never ended up eventuating

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Didn’t they cited similar reasoning when they decided to remove Energy Drain entirely at early 5.0? Something something so SCH mains can focus on oh so much harder healing this expac’s raid brought in.

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And when the job design team removed Energy Drain they didn't compensate SCH's for the more important mana regen they lost that was tied to Energy Drain (later put on aetherflow)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And when the job design team removed Energy Drain they didn't compensate SCH's for the more important mana regen they lost that was tied to Energy Drain (later put on aetherflow)

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On that front they never should have deleted quickened aetherflow, energy drain could have easily lost its mana regen if using energy drain sped up aetherflow to regen more mana quickly

Instead we got the worst of both worlds and SCH ended up with a worse mana economy than back when AST had to time dilate lucid dreaming