Aww, I think bias is the wrong word. Even if it's the right one, it's not an intentional one. Maybe perceived unfairness? It's not even on the posting side, it's on the voting side. I'll try to explain, but keep in mind I'm at work so can't devote a lot of time to doing so. Basically, when the voter (the public) is looking at the pictures in order, by the time they get to the last photo they likely already have three in their mind they are planning to vote on. This means the further down the list you are the better your picture has to be to knock off one of those three. It probably doesn't make a huge difference in the end, but in tight contests of one or two votes making the difference, it could be the decision maker.Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
I honestly hadn't even considered that some people might view the randomization as being handled unfairly. I see your point there. Maybe the listing order really is nothing more than a lose-lose situation regardless of how you do it.
Edit: Check out Tinsley's comment on this. She said it much better than me.
OFFICIAL Eorzea's Next Top Model Discussion Thread
Printable View
-
12-11-2014, 11:52 PMAmenian
-
12-12-2014, 12:08 AMAmalahRoseQuote:
Originally Posted by Tinsley
Yes we did, on the Fenrir server. I was Amalah then, but Doomy was still Doomsayer. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
-
12-12-2014, 12:18 AMEorzeasNTM
@Lowena OMG I was on Fenrir for 7 years!!! Your name doesn't sound familiar, but Doomsayer's does! Hmmmmmm!!! xD
@Almenian Hmmmm...it seems to me it is a self perceived handicap above anything else. Looking at Cycle 2 and 3 Excel Sheets should calm any fears about it.
Thank you for deciding against the word bias! It's become my least favorite word since hosting this event. xD
I posted the first round of Cycle 1 on a whim, totally at random, and realized as I was posting Round 2 that if I changed the order people might think I was putting my favorites first or least favorites last, so I posted all of the Rounds in the exact same order as I did in Round 1. To streamline this, in Cycle 2 I alphabetized them, and Tyriont saw it best to do it that way in Cycle 3 as well.
Edit: Sorry if it seems I am ignoring your other 4 critiques! xD I'm not! Like I said, I just want to talk to Tyriont before I make any comments since he and I are a duo and conflicting responses to them could cause unwanted strife. ^^; -
12-12-2014, 01:22 AMAdamFyi:D!! *cough*Hopefully I live up to your expectations.*cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrunHilda
-
12-12-2014, 02:05 AMMissBrunHildaYou will! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
https://31.media.tumblr.com/9026baef...Ga71rekiz1.gif -
12-12-2014, 02:34 AMAdamFyi<3Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrunHilda
http://media.giphy.com/media/4Gf2txOa5EGY0/giphy.gif -
12-12-2014, 02:40 AMCorfish
Just to clarify his point about alphabetical order, in Marketing if you want someone to choose a particular option you put it sooner rather than later. The reason for this is because if someone is lazy, once they find 3 they like, they'll say F it and just vote for those 3 without really looking at others. I don't think it's causing too many issues, but a way around being worried you're playing favoritism if you randomize the orders is to just move everyone up a slot every round, with the first person taking the last. So it'd go A, B, C ,D, for one round, then B,C,D,A, and etc.
For this kind of casual competition I think that would be a sufficient sollution to alleviate the worries from people who dislike it always having the same order.
Again, I don't think it's a particularly big issue here, just trying to help explain what he means to hopefully help! -
12-12-2014, 02:45 AMAdamFyiMaybe not randomize, but how about moving the list down every round? Round one would be organized as A, B, C, and D. Round two would have the list pushed down one step so it would be organized as D, A, B, C. Round three would do the same so it would go C, D, A, B. This would continue as such until the end. The reason to push it down one step is so that those who were at the bottom of the list for the round immediately get pushed to the top in the next round! I think this would probably be a wonderful solution! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Corfish
-
12-12-2014, 02:48 AMParodine
Ironically, I tend to think the opposite. The last person in the album has the biggest opportunity to make a lasting impression on the viewer and have their photo be the freshest in one's mind where as someone might forget the first in an album.
Regardless, we'll definitely all discuss it. I think an issue becomes even with randomizing, if someone who gets put in whatever last place of the album will that really stop complaints, or just make people think it was the RNG that ruined their chances?
I don't know if there's really a good solution or not. -
12-12-2014, 02:49 AMAmenian
Aiden and Adam, I think both of you are on the right track.
-
12-12-2014, 03:03 AMAmalahRoseFound vintage Amalah and Doomy pics from our wedding in XI. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
http://i.imgur.com/GCgVROz.jpg
A wild Kuchichi appears.
http://i.imgur.com/uYQQWUC.png
I'll stop with the off topicness now. xD -
12-12-2014, 03:08 AMKaiyoko
Hello everyone :3
http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...1617330023.jpg
I haven't been able to post much lately, but I wanted to say something since it's been weeks of being extremely busy between the holidays, Final coil, and other things I need to keep up with in 2.4 @~@ Cycle 3 fell at a vary awkward time.
My static was able to finish off Final coil last Friday too~!
Hopefully my shots weren't too terrible over the last few weeks for you :|. I was able to commit a lot more time to Round 7 now that all the big baddies are dead \o/.
Thanks for the feedback judges. I did want to comment on the brightness issue because this is something I'm constantly trying to combat. Once in awhile models get the comments about being too bright or too dark and I look at this as a lose lose situation. We have no idea what your monitors setting are brightness wise and you also have to factor in if the monitor is back lit and other settings you might have. Some shots look fantastic on one screen and not another so it's very difficult to please everyone w/o knowing the device it is being displayed on. I actually have set up my monitors when reviewing my pictures to show diffident lightning setting just to try and solve this and obviously sometimes it doesn't work out. I'll try to pick a picture based on what looks best between both settings.Quote:
Kaiyoko Star
Judge A: "I love the background here and you're clearly rushing between orders. However you're lit a little -too- brightly compared to the background so that it takes you out of the shot rather than looking like a part of it."
Score: 2
Judge B: "Very cute, damn that hyur would be a fool not to slip you his number, but again I need to see a little more storytelling. You look stressed but why? Is the manager on your back? is there an annoying Customer? did a Lala drop all the clean dishes? I need a little more info for a story to develop here."
Score: 2
Judge C: "This shot came off as romantic to me, because of the hyur distantly staring on the left. Can really think of a cute story to this shot. The lighting on your character is a bit much, however."
Score: 2
Judge D: "Pretty background! The glow from the crystal is gorgeous. I love lamp light at night in Eorzea. You are lit up nicely despite the time of day. Interesting use of outfit. Themed waitress. I take from your expression that you have just taken the order and are trying to remember it, unsure if that was your intent however. :3"
Score: 2
Judge E: "Wonderful facial expression. Not quite sure what is going on in this image though. The customer doesn’t look angry or upset, nor is there any interaction between the two of you, so I can’t see a concept other than you are … worried about something? Maybe there is a crowd of people waiting for the table? Not sure what is happening. I do like the depth that we get from the table but wish you had been on the other side of the table directly behind you. I think that would have given the sense of interaction with those two NPCs, while also giving us depth and a good background. It’s very very bright. Hurts my eyes." Score: 2
Take care everyone, looking forward to next round~~~ -
12-12-2014, 03:49 AMAdeline
YAY I managed to get first this week in the ladie's category ;D I'm so happy <33 ty and shoutout to the voters and judges thank you for your critiques. I'm happy I didn't disappoint anyone this week as I sometimes do xD I was HOPING to get S, but DAMMIT EPSIL HE TOOK IT!!! (jk grats man <3)
I'm sad to see Xev and Fate go...and Amenian too :< Plz don't leave and still talk to us!!!
http://www.catgifs.org/wp-content/up...d_cat_gifs.gif
Btw you can still posts on the forums even with an unsubbed account. At least that's what my friend told me...
Also as far as the rules go and some suggestions that were made, I kinda don't see the problem with maybe randomizing names every week of some sort. It would spice things up, and prevent people from skipping over models they don't usually vote for and go straight for their favorites/friends. Just my 2 cents :S GL everyone with week 7!!! -
12-12-2014, 04:02 AMAdamFyiGood luck to you too! I had a lot of fun with this week's theme ...though there were a crap ton of technical difficulties occurring when I took the picture... and I hope everyone else does too! It does feel kind of detached when you can't use your Wind-up Sun minion though.. but it was an interesting challenge nonetheless!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeline
Here, have a smile!
http://puu.sh/dqvOW/4b8e74ce3b.jpg -
12-12-2014, 04:43 AMBramble
OMG! I totally missed voting, i had it in my head i had until tonight to get my vote on! Christmas madness, it's killing meeeeeeeee!!! Q.Q
-
12-12-2014, 05:12 AMFlareR
I agree Kaiyoko. I'm a pale Lala! That darn sun minion is NOT my best friend.
-
12-12-2014, 06:30 AMSandoriaAwww I'm not leaving. Just gonna vote and tell everyone all the reasons I love them! Voting might be hard with how good all you guys are but I look forward to it. This weekend's round is sooo challenging and I am super excite to see what you guys come up with!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeline
Also I love this contest and everything about it but as the person with the X name, I'd love to see some randomizing. There were several weeks not where I felt it caused me a handicap (In fact I've felt everyone in this has been more than kind to me and I ♥ you all for it), as much as I worried people thought I was copying someone else's idea just because they already saw the concept by the time they got to me. -
12-12-2014, 08:26 AMEorzeasNTMCongrats on the wedding! Love the dress!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiyoko
I am one of the judges that called out the brightness! ^^;;;;;; I actually look at all the pictures with my brightness turned all the way down and then all the way up because I like to give the models the benefit of the doubt. ((I wish people would trust me to make the right decisions at least half the time around here. Lol!)) I also go back and look at them on my cellphone, again with my brightness at lowest and max, because I am ENTM's biggest fan...seriously I have no life you guys. I'M OBSESSED! You thought it was Fruity Twootie? No. It's me. o.o; I'd rather look at the pictures you models submit over and over and over again then actually play FFXIV or study for school. Out of all the judges, I feel my "its too dark/too bright!" critiques are the fairest/best judged. xD
I have no idea what next round is! I can't wait to see ittttt!!
Silly! You only got first because your name starts with an A! xDDD :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeline
I was unsubbed for a while during Cycle 1 and 2 and was still able to post the rounds and in this thread, so I want to say your friend is right! ><; But Tyriont didn't log in for 14 days and it blocked him from logging on any more until he did something to get it reactivated! :eek:
If Tyriont wants to start alternating the models shots, he is more than welcome to. As long as he still posts the scores alphabetically so I can easily Excel-a-cize them! xD But if he does, I don't ever want to hear a model blame their position in the line up for their elimination again!!!!! Deal?
Vintage! xD So now that Windurst Theme is stuck in my head...Lol! Is that OUR Kuchichi?!Quote:
Originally Posted by AmalahRose
-
12-12-2014, 09:22 AMYamimarik
Hello! ENTM peeps!!! I'm sorry I haven't posted much lately, been extremely busy with life (holidays and just life) lol. Haven't had much time to even play FFXIV either aside from a lil during the day and set static nights @.@ Anywhoooooo... I see some of you guys taking advantage of "Eternal Bonding"!! My platinum band has been purchased!! Now to find me a man that wants to marry me ; ; lol
I'm extremely excited about this next round!!! I've had a concept in my head ever since I received the photo shoot list, and I was like "OMG! I know what I'm doing for that one ^.^" I actually prepped everything before actually going through with the photoshoot i.e. (poses, facial expressions, job, gear, etc.) before finding people to help me out with it! I'm extremely giddy to see what everyone else did for this, one issue I had was.... not being able to use a certain resource (won't give too much away hopefully). Either way...
CARBUNCLEULATIONS!! to those getting married!! I hope we get to see pictures and/or videos online somewhere ^.^
Marik out for now <3 -
12-12-2014, 09:32 AMAdelineMiss you Marik <333 GL with finding a husbando, I'm sure you'll find a keeper :3!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamimarik
-
12-12-2014, 09:55 AMKaiyokoThank you ;3 Congrats to you and everyone else here as well ^^, December will be a busy month for the East Shroud chapel by the looks of it. As for the dress I'm still not sure if this is what I'm going with or not lol. Nari gets to pick >_>.Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
As far as the brightness goes, I'll try to be more careful with it. I've been trying to be on the brighter side then darker side after reading a lot of the critiques from cycle 2. I use Kin as a good example because everyone (based on comments from cycle 2) seemed to like her complexion / brightness. I figure if I get close, but maybe a little less then that it would be good. I know her complexion is different then mine so maybe that's the difference. -
12-12-2014, 10:09 AMFruityTwotieQuote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
YOU!Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
YOU WILL REGRET THAT!
YOU BETTER WATCH YOURSELF RONGI..... PONGI.......... !!!!!!!!!!!!
http://i.imgur.com/ppjKUVj.png -
12-12-2014, 10:30 AMAdamFyiI lost it here. Can someone please call the ambulance? I'm dying of laughter. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by FruityTwotie
-
12-12-2014, 10:52 AMFruityTwotieYou think this is a game Adam......?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
I don't think you realize......
https://redassreviews.files.wordpres.../08/algore.jpg -
12-12-2014, 10:53 AMEorzeasNTM
Alright, an official response from me, and one coming from Tyriont later.
1) Don't put the models in alphabetical order every week.
We are completely divided on this in the Judge's Conversation on Skype. I am against it because going by alphabetical order is structured, and from it no one can accuse any one of bias. If a random generator puts Model F in the back of the bunch 3 Rounds in a row, is it the host's job to say "no i think she should be in the front this round" and move her up? Where does he decide to move her? Two of you (Adam and Aiden, I believe) suggest moving them in rotating order each round. What about the Model whose name starts with Z? She wont be in the front of the pack until Round 12!!!!
Tyriont will be doing something special before the start of Cycle 4 to get all of the ENTMer's opinions on this. Please look forward to it! :D
2) Have the judges vote and give their comments before
Most of us do this anyway, submitting our scores within the first 24 hours of the pictures going up. I personally submit my within the first hour they are posted. Like all of you, I do have no seen any of the pictures until Ty posts them, so I am sitting here refreshing my screen just like yall. xD But for the judges who do take a little bit longer to submit, I do ask that you do not look at the tally or voting posts. Scouts Honor!
3) Have the judges vote hold more weight.
Unless we start getting a consistent 50+ voters each round, the current system is perfect. 5-15 bonus points for each model each round is more than enough to cover Friends Family and Fiances voting for their Favorite Model each round. The 4 Fs! xD The FriendsFamily&FianceFavorites!
4) Maybe consider some other method of elimination besides single round.
We are still considering how to do this, but my suggestion for Cycle 4 is to have a Weekly Challenge, which will be a Scenic Shot, followed by a Weekly Photoshoot, which would be a Theme or a Battle Shot. Combining these two scores would get the lowest score and eliminate the model. Using this system, I also suggest there NOT be a Judge's Save. Two Low Scores leading to your elimination is on you. haha.
5) Judges: .... provide constructive criticism instead.
After the initial comments about this, Tyriont and I have been watching the critiques very closely. Since that round, "This photo does not excite me" didn't set off red flags for either of us, so there must have been something in the critique that we both considered constructive. OR we just missed it, and for that we apologize.
As always, we welcome any ideas for making the next Cycle better and better! :D I do ask that if the ideas are coming from models, please send them in BEFORE you get eliminated. We don't want anyone being accused of Sour Grapes like Yunie and other models were from previous Cycles. -
12-12-2014, 10:56 AMAdamFyiHoly crap. Hahaha. Why are you doing this Fruity.. Whhyyyyyyyy??!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FruityTwotie
*cough* waai *cough*
Actually the way I structured my take on the rotation was to push everything down a step each consecutive week. Meaning round 1 would have everything arranged alphabetically to start us off. Then in round 2, everyone is pushed down a position while the person on the bottom of the list is placed in the front. So in round 2, the model with a name that starts with the letter Z would be placed first in the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
-
12-12-2014, 11:21 AMEorzeasNTMYea, moving them in rotating order. xD But you are suggesting it in a reverse order.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
But what about model number 7 and 8? They wont get to be at the front until round 12 IF they even make it that far, which they probably wont since they are on the last half of the album for the first 11 rounds!!!! D: D: D: -
12-12-2014, 11:36 AMAdamFyi
How about pushing down the list by 5 each week? With how everything moves down the list, everyone will be alternating between the front of the list and the back of the list. The problem I can see with this is the reduction in the number of participants over time, but after testing it out, it could possibly work.
Actually scratch that. Last place will always end up in the bottom multiple times if we remove the eliminated models in the list when organizing. -
12-12-2014, 11:39 AMEorzeasNTMI'm just concerned its going to come down to the host having to say "Well, this person WOULD have been first picture of the batch this Round, but since that person got eliminated they are now the second picture of the bunch...so I will change it to be nice." or "Well, this person would have been, but SUCKS TO BE THEM!"Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Both of those look bad to me. Giving the host control over that is bad. Alphabetizing gives the host no power whatsoever.
Just naming way your names to AAAAA if you want to compete. xD Its the only way to win ENTM dont you know? xD -
12-12-2014, 11:44 AMFruityTwotieI understand why you needed a Roe Female now....Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
YOU JUST COULDN'T LET ME BE #1 COULD YOU?!!? IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE MY TIME IN THE SPOT LIGHT AND BE YOUTUBE FAMOUS /o\ !
BIAS RONGI! BIAS I CALL! I'LL FOREVER ONLY BE A #2 TO RONGI!!!!!! -
12-12-2014, 11:49 AMEorzeasNTMB-but! I! N-no, I n-never!Quote:
Originally Posted by FruityTwotie
http://i.imgur.com/4OepxYf.gif -
12-12-2014, 12:06 PMAdamFyi
After giving it much thought, I think moving tge list down by 5 each week would make sense as long as we factor in eliminated models.
Round 1
A B C D E F U V W X Y Z
W is eliminated.
Round 2
V W X Y Z A B C D E F U
X is eliminated.
Round 3
C D E F U V W X Y Z A B
C is eliminated.
Round 4
X Y Z A B C D E F U V W
V is eliminated.
Round 5
E F U V W X Y Z A B C D
A is eliminated.
Round 6
Z A B C D E F U V W X Y
F is eliminated.
Round 7
U V W X Y Z A B C D E F
E is eliminated.
Round 8
B C D E F U V W X Y Z A
D is eliminated.
Round 9
W X Y Z A B C D E F U V
Z is eliminated.
Round 10
D E F U VW X Y Z A B C
U is eliminated.
Round 11
Y Z A B C D E F U VW X
B is eliminated.
Round 12
F U VW X Y Z A B C D E
Adam wins! -
12-12-2014, 12:17 PMTyriont
Rongi pretty much hit most of the points so to save repetition I'm just going to clarify a few things.
As to the model ordering, I've no inherent disagreement with swapping it up and I understand the points. My concern is that in the eventuality a model gets eliminated the week they're last in the list, then that may cause them to argue that the only reason they got knocked out was because of that. Therefore while I don't intend to make a change for this Cycle, I would like to pair that with other changes. As Rongi mentioned, ideas are being bounced around as a potential alternate for the one week, one elimination model. I think combining the two ideas is the best way to go. On which note if anyone has an idea as to potential alternate methods (that still result in a one elimination per week, to keep in the spirit of the shows we'reripping offtaking inspiration from.
As implied, I'll be doing a poll before Cycle 4 to get community feedback on what the display method should be.
The other part I want to address is judging. As I've said before, this was the first time we've done this and it's definitely a learning process for everyone involved. I can certainly see where people were coming from regarding harsh feedback and I would like to think we took steps to improve from the early rounds.
That said I would like to now state how I'm going to be deciding on the judges for next round.
First off, anyone is welcome to apply but priority will be given to those who have been models in the past! If you haven't been then I would still like to invite you to apply but I would like some description of why you think you would be a good judge.
Secondly, I'm going to hold a judge audition separately. When the time comes I will post three screenshots of varying quality and invite all prospective judges to send me feedback on them. This feedback will then be used to 'assess' judges, particularly to see how well they can offer constructive criticism when a shot has glaring weaknesses. I'll be on the lookout for kindness, useful feedback and entertaining writing styles!
The last thing I want to add is a personal thank you to everyone offering suggestions as to how to improve the contest! It is ever evolving and everyone's suggestions only help to make it more enjoyable for everyone involved. So thanks! And remember, if you don't feel comfortable making a suggestion on the forums you can always e-mail it to me at ENTMTyriont@gmail.com. -
12-12-2014, 12:26 PMAdeline
Kekeke I can't wait to apply to be a judge
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6fec3d8003.jpg -
12-12-2014, 12:43 PMFlareR
So want to be a judge next season! I think you all are doing a fantastic job and what you are doing atm is working. We're all trying and learning new things as we go along. I want to thank you all for keeping this contest as fun as it's been! I've met some amazing people I wouldn't have met if I didn't apply.
-
12-12-2014, 02:10 PMEpsilO_O;; *hyperventilates*Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
-
12-12-2014, 03:41 PMEorzeasNTMLooking at this, I think the models get well distributed. Good job Adam.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Tyriont will holding a poll before Cycle 4 to figure out how we order the albums starting cycle 4. either alphabetized, totally randomized, or maybe the last option will be ur suggestion. ^^ -
12-12-2014, 05:01 PMEirwenThat does look better than the alternative I had in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM
The thing I came up with was a reverse popularity order, where the one with the lowest score last round gets to be first in line next round and the highest score will be last in line. -
12-12-2014, 05:33 PMEorzeasNTMHuh...that sounds like an interesting way too. Add it to the poll!!!! xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirwen
Really though, all this for the order of pictures in the album? o.o; -
12-12-2014, 06:02 PMRaquelleAvarosa
Gonna get married too! (＾▽＾)
http://i.imgur.com/m2njgv3.jpg