Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You... realize it's possible to branch off from a quoted post with a different discussion topic or point, right? That's how forums work?

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Of course, but it should be clear when you do that. Your post, even the one that you quoted yourself, made it seem like you were deflecting on not understanding about the Scholar topic and tried to say you had other point regarding my post.

Branching off to make another related point makes sense. Branching off just to reiterate your initial point in the thread when neither of the posts you quoted had anything to do with that doesn't make sense.

So of course that would create misunderstanding. Just be clear next time and delineate your points better.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Might work for some, others might think "Why did those jerks kick me?!" and will come to the forums to complain. :p Either way, we usually only hear one side of the story, and there's always some details that are conveniently left out.

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I generally don't see people complain about being kicked, unless it's in that one duty finder thread.

Come on, they continue with the argument that it is a problem that does not happen? Go to Frontline and see how many people without brains who are not able to read who have 3 potions to heal, anyone who actively PVP knows perfectly the problems that PVE has given in this game, many of these knocked down with a outdated curve of learning.

-It is necessary to renew the Hall of novice and make it mandatory
-It is necessary that the jobs stone are mandatory for the progress of the story
-It is necessary to eliminate the Easy mode of the MSQ at the same time eliminate the echo of it and the class missions, in this way if you die you analyze why you have died instead of simply continuing to try until you have a 30% increase stats.
-PVP requires a mandatory tutorial that forces players to know what their buttons are for.

With this there is no longer the excuse of not "knowing" something, you have the mandatory tools in the game itself, each player will know how to use the knowledge that the game gave.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

-It is necessary to renew the Hall of novice and make it mandatory

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I just wanna focus on this part, because while I agree, I think I know the reasoning to why it wasn't a requirement, and unlike most times where I say it's stupid, you do kinda have to blame WoW for this.

In WoD they decided that the Proving Grounds would be required to do heroic content. You'd have to prove at least a silver, which was pretty easy all things considered, in the role you're wanting to queue for. So if you wanted to heal, you had to show you had a basic grasp of healing. While this isn't Hall of Novice level where the game is actively teaching you, it is giving you stuff to do in order to use your abilities to reach a goal in a solo environment.

And the problem was players despised this. For something that was easy (I promise, it was, even my dumb butt could do it and I'm bad at wow), a lot of players struggled with it, to the point players were either actively paying REAL MONEY for someone else to do it for them, or they just actively refused to do it at all, and just never unlocked heroic. It was bad enough that Blizzard had to back out, and remove the requirement before the expac even finished, because players just hated being force tested.

So if I had to guess, that's probably why Square didn't make Hall of Novice a requirement to dungeon, because they were concerned of newbies who might have difficulty and just quit over it, and for Square that is still money walking out the door, regardless if it's someone who wants to actually learn or not.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I just wanna focus on this part, because while I agree, I think I know the reasoning to why it wasn't a requirement, and unlike most times where I say it's stupid, you do kinda have to blame WoW for this.

In WoD they decided that the Proving Grounds would be required to do heroic content. You'd have to prove at least a silver, which was pretty easy all things considered, in the role you're wanting to queue for. So if you wanted to heal, you had to show you had a basic grasp of healing. While this isn't Hall of Novice level where the game is actively teaching you, it is giving you stuff to do in order to use your abilities to reach a goal in a solo environment.

And the problem was players despised this. For something that was easy (I promise, it was, even my dumb butt could do it and I'm bad at wow), a lot of players struggled with it, to the point players were either actively paying REAL MONEY for someone else to do it for them, or they just actively refused to do it at all, and just never unlocked heroic. It was bad enough that Blizzard had to back out, and remove the requirement before the expac even finished, because players just hated being force tested.

So if I had to guess, that's probably why Square didn't make Hall of Novice a requirement to dungeon, because they were concerned of newbies who might have difficulty and just quit over it, and for Square that is still money walking out the door, regardless if it's someone who wants to actually learn or not.

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I really think we all know the decisions why many of these things are not mandatory, even because they have made the fighting in the MSQ too easy, which simply gives us reason by bothering us with a non-existent learning curve that only hurts the population of the game. .

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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I don't think wanting people to use the basics of their toolkit is being a "try hard". If people can't handle a Hall of the Novice completion...well, perhaps they shouldn't be doing group content.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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While thats a bit extreme, it's not a bad idea I'm practice. However, it only benefits one group of players. Players that SE needs to cover for all the less than stellar players that they coddle.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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I don't think people knowing how to play their job and using their toolkit, understanding what an AOE looks like and that you really shouldn't just stand in them on purpose all the time, or know what a stack marker looks like and what to do with it is a try hard. That's just basic gameplay. I don't think it's too much to ask to for basic gameplay in MSQ dungeons and trials.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

-It is necessary to eliminate the Easy mode of the MSQ at the same time eliminate the echo of it and the class missions, in this way if you die you analyze why you have died instead of simply continuing to try until you have a 30% increase stats..

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Most failures in story content come down to bad information or overall lack of information in a presentable / eye catching way.. many quests do give you some hints or objectives but they typically come up in the chat log where noone is really looking because they're paying attention to whats actually going on.. and not only that if you havent sent time customizing your chat log and still using the default settings it's real easy for that information to dissapear very quickly if someone in your ls or fc is talking in chat..

adding an easy mode and very easy mode was totally unnecessary here all they had to do is make itclearer what they expected players to do and many dont make sense anyway with the jobs.. like many of the paladin quests treat you like a dps not a tank. so you run in like a tank and grab that boss and you're going to fail cos you're supposed to be runnnig around killing the nobodies..

think the worst one i ever did was either smn or blm in coerthas. where some void spawns waaaayyyyyy over there in the distance and you have no idea at all your meant to go and seal it. so instead everyone just endlessly stick near the npcs trying to nuke everything down until they get overwhelemed and fail.. it used to be notorious for it.. it was never that t was a difficult task. it was just the game doing a terrible job of telling players what was expected of them...

imo they should have fixed that rather than just tack ona very easy mode that lets you just overpower everything with no care at all what your supposed to do..

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

I don't think people knowing how to play their job and using their toolkit, understanding what an AOE looks like and that you really shouldn't just stand in them on purpose all the time, or know what a stack marker looks like and what to do with it is a try hard. That's just basic gameplay. I don't think it's too much to ask to for basic gameplay in MSQ dungeons and trials.

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Stack marker wise I'd like to see SE make that consistent across all the content. Where you have one consistent sign of 'shit time to stack up' rather than like what.. three or four different visual ques for it?