What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Not to mention, even if you WANT to criticize the Ancients for stuff like that FATE series or the creation of Behemoth, that's immediately undermined because the Warrior of Light is happy to participate and help the Ancients in that process. "Hm, okay, I'll give this guy feedback about his predator creation to end up with a Meteor-slinging Behemoth. Also this guy is bad and wrong for making Behemoth (which I actively helped him with)."

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Indeed - if we begin using this (Hermes's) as a standard to (unfairly) judge the ancients by, how much worse would the sundered fare on such a front, given that they themselves are characterised by many human vices, which the story makes no real effort to conceal except when it's trying to paint the ancients as doomed. As I've said in the past, Alphinaud should store up his quotes for that fateful day when a supreme deity/herois adjudicates the sundered to be too prone to vice, too predisposed to doom (be it the Plenty in the absence of the Rejoinings since we're told they'd be innocent angels but for the Ascians, or the first two worlds if they succumb to their vices), too 'arrogant' towards lower life forms, or even other human life (fate killing sprees, using a variety of arcane beings and elevated animals as servitors, the use of animal and plant life as consumables, the use of egi and even primals to serve their ends, man warring against man, etc.), and decides to sunder them. The shock makes no real sense and whatever Yoshi thought of the plausibility of the framing the story tried to put on it, it unravels when you consider the full picture, including the Elpis sidequests and what was known from the Amaurotine shades. Their constant lens and focus is acting for the well-being of the star, which they almost saw as a life form, through which they and their creations almost passed through as a lifeblood, when aether returns to aether. To me there is a beauty in that vision, being part of a greater cosmic whole that transcends them as individuals without thereby scrubbing their individuality. Something that is a natural fit to the way souls work in the setting.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

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I think the very way this is framed is incoherent on some level - see here.

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Originally Posted by Tama-Kanzashi

That was actually Hythlodaeus right when we encounter the landshark. Since he is the Chief of the Bureau and knows what's en vogue right now.

The thing also is, no matter how much of an apex predator and ultrastrong creature a creation is, at some point they will have to get a seal of approval from the Chief of the Bureau and if his first reaction to something is "Wtf is that, why" it gets filed away or right in the bin. It's really not as much of a problem as it appears to be since they do have processes in place to make sure nothing stupid gets released into the wild.

Meteion was only able to slip under the radar since Hermes is in charge of Elpis and can probably just make stuff there without prior approval of the Bureau. As Hythlodaeus says, he expects the paperwork to be handed in asap when he meets Meteion for the first time.

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This one's interesting. I may be stretching a bit with my speculation here, but the outcome of this quest has me thinking they'd eventually realise there were problems with its approval processes:

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Oh, you're Azem's, are you? He is a goodly sort, wouldn't you say? Always appearing in times of trouble to extend a hand to those in need...and, given that I am one such, I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I borrowed you for a bit.

A lengthy debate was held in Ktisis Hyperboreia regarding the evaluation of creations. Meticulous minutes were taken during said forum, which I would like you to fetch for me.

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These are the documents I requested? My word, they must have been terribly heavy...

The friend I spoke of is involved in the operation of Anamnesis Anyder, a facility which houses myriad concepts, cogitations, and ideas.

He felt that certain procedures─especially the ones concerning living creations─were lacking in information. Thus he sought detailed records that he might fill in the blanks, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Not necessarily. With such grand regard given to the ecosystem, and the fact that all creatures seem to be given aether manipulation, I think it speaks more to the idea that even the unsundered world had naturally occurring monsters.

In other words, there's no reason to create monsters if there weren't monsters first. There's a whole section of history we do not have, such as pre-paradise Amaurot. Perhaps monsters were made when they still had war, perhaps our progenitors' monsters were born of their own progenitors. So maybe they're just doing the best with what they were given.

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There is dialogue suggestive of this, to the effect that they shaped their star into what it is from an untamed wilderness. The implication given, very strongly, in Through His Eyes is that the star had its own pre-existing criteria for what it was willing to stick a soul in, such that they had to ensure their creations accorded with said criteria before for it to do so, which is to me a good indication that the star already had life that the ancients then took it upon themselves to further add to.

One of the things that really strikes me as interesting in the Elpis arc is that when Hades makes you tangible, he makes your weapons tangible too. They let you go in there armed, and nobody bats an eyelash about your weapons ever, as far as I recall. I guess their default assumption is that you use them for self-defense, though I suppose a weapon of any sort isn't really noteworthy to a race that can whip up anything with the snap of their fingers.

Even in Emet-Selch's phantom Amaurot, the debate sidequest involved you interrupting someone arguing very vehemently that the Bureau's standards for approving concepts was misguided, and that imperfections that could create diversity for a greater enrichment of the world should be valued more highly.

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But that is precisely my point─that their obsession with this so-called mandate to approve only the most beneficial concepts for wider distribution (never mind the ridiculous subjectivity of their criteria) has led the Bureau of the Architect astray from its original purpose...

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No no no, my position has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of unique identity and whether or not it is retained! Rather, I posit that the reproductions of a given concept are inherently imperfect, and thus they are themselves unique, albeit in minor but significant degrees, and─most importantly─this variance is not to be condemned, but celebrated! Better that than to strive in vain for an impossible standard that, even if met, would leave us lesser for lack of diversity!

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God bless you, Amaurotine Firebrand, clearly yet another brainwashed member of this utterly conformist, collectivist, hopeless race and society of people fixated on pure perfection and who were obviously incapable of change and thus tragically had to be put down for the greater good.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

God bless you, Amaurotine Firebrand, clearly yet another brainwashed member of this utterly conformist, collectivist, hopeless race and society of people fixated on pure perfection and who were obviously incapable of change and thus tragically had to be put down for the greater good.

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Interestingly, it's also the premise behind the Chthonic Horns from the Touring Anagnorisis quest, who experiment with 'natural' methods of growing and cross-breeding plant life to see what manner of results this could yield (but no, they'd never have the curiosity or ingenuity to deal with the true cause of the Final Days...) I do think the quest that fomented the notion that they were, on some level, a dystopia, was the Community Cohesion one (and again, the quest NPC for that is not called patronising in the FR localisation, but rather, charitable, which lends itself to what you say - even if at times they were a bit confused by your character, the way they behave is not driven by malice but good intentions.) I always took that quest as expanding on why they were able to achieve the sort of society they had, i.e. working on suppressing their worse instincts and focusing on channelling their power and individuality through intellectual (and I'd guess, artistic) means, which makes sense given the sort of beings they are and the powers with which they're naturally endowed.

The thing that is abundantly clear from all the lore we have built up for them is they differed as individuals, and these differences also manifest in their attitudes to their creations, as well as having their own virtues as well as some vices in certain cases. Even so, with the worst possible reading of their stance to their creations (which are beings quite far removed from what they are in many respects, even more than regular animals are from us), they still by and large tried to minimise their suffering and integrated them into their societal purpose (=better the star), i.e. everything had its place and purpose. In addition to some treating their creations affectionately, as we would a pet.

Even in terms of dynamism, be it the example you cited, or Themis's raring to go attitude in Pandaemonium, they were not wanting in that respect.

On a separate note, another thing they tend to get weirdly blamed for, i.e. just jumping to summoning Zodiark, also seems to have only come about after they tried other methods (although I thought that was at least implied anyway, but it's clearly stated here):

https://youtu.be/EBfCrns8-9I?t=148

I just hope Pandaemonium isn't another case of me questioning whether they even remember the characterisation of the ancients they built up in SHB, or even as recently, in EW via Elpis.

The writing of the Ancients from the phantom Amaurot was so fascinating, well-written, and most importantly, a massive departure from how they were often represented in Endwalker—or rather how the narrative seemed to want you to feel about them. The city not only had people like the Firebrand who argued for celebrating creations who don't meet arbitrary standards, but you also have far more self-conscious ones in the Gentle Amaurotine, who told us eventual stagnation was a very real issue they considered and thought about:

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But even inspiration has its limits. For all the wonders we have wrought, I do wonder if there will come a time when we have fully explored the potential of our powers—when there is truly nothing left unmade, and only iteration and imitation and stagnation remain...

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Much of these 'issues' that the Ancients seemed to have not only seemed to be largely conjured up for specifically Endwalker, but they also contradict the image of the society that we came to know before. And yes, I know its easy to say its a result of Emet-selch's rose-tinted glasses, but I honestly think these discussions and issues are too complex to be the result of bias on his part. These Ancients seem reflective of actual people, giving their thoughts about the world they live in. The more you consider people like the ones in this city, the more holes are poked in the idea that they were beyond saving.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

The writing of the Ancients from the phantom Amaurot was so fascinating, well-written, and most importantly, a massive departure from how they were often represented in Endwalker—or rather how the narrative seemed to want you to feel about them. The city not only had people like the Firebrand who argued for celebrating creations who don't meet arbitrary standards, but you also have far more self-conscious ones in the Gentle Amaurotine, who told us eventual stagnation was a very real issue they considered and thought about:

Much of these 'issues' that the Ancients seemed to have not only seemed to be largely conjured up for specifically Endwalker, but they also contradict the image of the society that we came to know before. And yes, I know its easy to say its a result of Emet-selch's rose-tinted glasses, but I honestly think these discussions and issues are too complex to be the result of bias on his part. These Ancients seem reflective of actual people, giving their thoughts about the world they live in. The more you consider people like the ones in this city, the more holes are poked in the idea that they were beyond saving.

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What's really wild about Elpis is that, putting aside my inherent mixed feelings in fully realizing the Ancients as part of this fantasy world to begin with (their presentation in Amaurot was striking and haunting because they felt so deliberately removed from the fantasy and closer to Actual People - down to having the more modern New York-style architecture and skyline, which becomes another piece of "uh, what?" in terms of "hoping you'd find them scary because they're Not Like Us" - Shadowbringers leaned on them being more Like Us than the residents of Eorzea, but okay) - considered entirely on its own, I loved it and it was almost everything I could have hoped for. The Ancients were still incredibly sweet, gentle, well-meaning people who were still very clearly people with their own struggles, thoughts, and individuality. The haunting sense of "lost reality" from Shadowbringers was necessarily and inevitably missing, but I still had the same sense of "warmth" and "safety" from them.

But then the overt narrative itself and interviews went and tried to sit down and tell me: "All those aspects you found lovable and charming and wonderful and indicative of a good society and good-hearted people? Those were all meant to be bad and demonstrative of why the Ancients Had To Go and the story is dependent on you reacting to them that way." It's a bit of a head-spinning trip, just like the story points demonstrating Hydaelyn's actions to be worse, to my perception, than I ever thought or suspected they could be, while simultaneously urging me to understand her as noble and benevolent. What is even happening here.jpg, down is up, up is down, etc. Endwalker!

Maybe Elpis is the problem. This isn't some Ancient city where normal Ancients live. This was their super scientist biolab. Researching and splicing together DNA to make new creatures and exterminating those that did not meet their standard. This is a gross exaggeration of what went on, but we don't get to see normal Ancients. We get scientists and politicians. And those two groups together have never done anything bad in history ever.

I like the Ancients, but I can see why some people look at Elpis and see mad scientists and egotistical demigods.

Yeah, that’s the problem. It’s all coding, and no narrative logic.

You guys hate scientists, right? Fox News told us so. And you also hate websites about whiny blue birds, right?

There! We put in both! Now there’s no way you can like this place! We’re geniuses!

Well, they kind of had to give us Elpis with their perception that they always need to ramp up what comes next, while also giving the player almost total freedom.

So we had to go to a place that could circumvent even the Convocation, though I suppose since the Convocation are literally just a governing council rather than absolute rulers, it's not that hard to circumvent them in the first place.

They took the narrative to the place truly most crucial to the Ancients' way of life. The place where all of the highest creations are made.

Kind of like a lab that has no direct oversight committee. They just made the concepts there, and then shipped them to Amaurot. Flies in the face of all the bureaucratic rule loving their society did, too.

Pardon my bad take, but; I really didn't/don't like the focus on The Ancients this expac.

I don't find them particularly interesting (except Emet) and they being behind creation just mess with the things I like about the lore: Elementals, Padjal, Beast Tribes etc.

Things are often most interesting when they can't/don't have to be constantly explained to me.

This falls into my second dislike; I've always disliked that my character is the WoL. Godlike can't-lose chosen tropes kills any interesting factor of a character. Lazy writing.
In headcanon my character is just another scion. A close friend to Tataru and co. that out of chance happens to have the gift of the echo.

But the idea that my character could stand 1v1 with "certain powerful opponents" is absurd. My character is a healer. He is not the fittest, most brilliant or bravest character in the world.

Why can't the story start focusing on that the scions always helps you out instead of sending you alone, with adventurer friends, in impossible scenarios?

Dragon Age Inquisition is the only modern RPG that does the "chosen one" correctly IMO - there you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You get something that your character can se as a means to power or as a curse.

You don't remember how you got "the thing" (no spoilers) until much later in the game because you lose that part of your memory out of trauma (keeps the mysticism).

You are free to RP it as something that destroyed your life. That you hate to have and just want to get rid off and go back to who you were before.

Some people in the world see you as a sign from god. Others are afraid of you and see you as a blasphemy, a pretender.

So its up to you; will you pretend to be a sign from god or are you not the brave hero everyone thinks you are? Are you just an average guy in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Is the thing a sign from god and is it actually a gift? (No spoilers) maybe, maybe not. I loved the twist here.

The things that happen in Inquisition is bigger than you are. The characters you meet are just a as strong or stronger than you.
Constantly through the game; the story let's you play into that your character is just an average person that is afraid and scared to put themselves in danger if you so choose.

In FFXIV your character never struggle - if they do struggle it's not because of their own insecurities but because something happens to others. WoL is automatically the best at everything (except maybe paperwork). WoL don't have any own internal struggles(beside DRK) no personal dreams or insecurities.

WoL never says; nah I don't want to do that, nah I'm tired of it all, nah I'm too afraid to go on, I don't want to die!

Where is the Frodo Baggins, DAI protaganists, Arthur Morgans in RPGs?

I hoped Endwalker would expand a bit on the WoL but they are still the boring superman-esque boyscout they always have been.

Thank god for "headcanon".

And Elpis completly sucked!