What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

There is a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying and what image you are using. From what you are saying I get the impression that you want to be the grey crowd.

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I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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It doesn't just happen towards the story, either. Someone speaks up about how male characters have been increasingly neglected? Same reaction. I still remember how Yoshi-P was 'surprised' that people wanted stubble for male characters despite it being a common request for years...and yet the moment the 2B gear had a visual bug an emergency statement was pushed out within a day. Funny how that works.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Found a picture that sums up my feelings about the game at the moment. Came here, started having a good time, now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR. These newer players who scoff at Ivalice yet fawn over the attempts at humour clearly don't want someone like me around pointing out why and how this game could be doing better, so maybe I should just let them have the run of the place.

It's unbelievable that I have to put up with some of this stuff.

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Does it really matter how long people have been playing this game in order for their opinion to be more "correct"? This is an MMO and it wasn't made specifically for your tastes. You don't own the rights to the direction of the game just because you've been here for awhile.

If you wanted to go that route, I've been here since 1.0 beta, subbed through all but the last couple of months of 1.0, and everyone else has been in my space and isn't as "real" of a FFXIV gamer as I am because I played the game back before there was a jump button or a market board. /s

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Does it really matter how long people have been playing this game in order for their opinion to be more "correct"? This is an MMO and it wasn't made specifically for your tastes. You don't own the rights to the direction of the game just because you've been here for awhile.

If you wanted to go that route, I've been here since 1.0 beta, subbed through all but the last couple of months of 1.0, and everyone else has been in my space and isn't as "real" of a FFXIV gamer as I am because I played the game back before there was a jump button or a market board. /s

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Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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Honestly, I feel it's the opposite. The game already has a ton of variety, different trends and overall feels to each expansion, etc.. As an example, the storyline for several relic weapon series in a row has been on the serious world-building side, and you get people frothing at the mouth because this time around it seems to be more relaxed involving Hildy. The issue is people wanting the game to suit exactly their tastes all the time, and throwing a hissy fit because the world doesn't revolve around them.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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Me wanting a decent story doesn't take away the slice of life and Hildibrand style humor that was already optional content without a reward on-par with the relic attached to it. I do not care to call for that sort of content's outright removal. But it should not be present in the MSQ and now the relic to the degree that it is.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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I don't get that impression at all, though I don't doubt that certain posters will seek to try and downplay any and all concerns raised despite the pretty blatant attempts to shout down and push out people from the community who dare to suggest that maybe the tone of the game is changing a little too much across the board and that there's far too much 'slice of life' content and undeserved plot armour. Though my previous post touched on what Aveyond has actually been saying across a great many posts. I've read pretty much all of them, too, I think.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Honestly, I feel it's the opposite. The game already has a ton of variety, different trends and overall feels to each expansion, etc.. As an example, the storyline for several relic weapon series in a row has been on the serious world-building side, and you get people frothing at the mouth because this time around it seems to be more relaxed involving Hildy. The issue is people wanting the game to suit exactly their tastes all the time, and throwing a hissy fit because the world doesn't revolve around them.

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I think the issue people have with it is that the story has already been affected by this mindset of everything needs to be light hearted and full of fluff. I don’t think there would be nearly as big of an outrage if ShB and EW hadn’t been littered with this slice of life stuff, but it has. So just having one of the few remaining serious and lore intensive questlines be turned into another slice of life content is the breaking point for many people, myself included.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

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That's not how their post comes across to me.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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I think they've been refining the game but I don't think it's changed the tone or target audience. They've never aimed to compete against any specific game and just want to do their own thing. 1.0 being the exception, but we saw how that turned out.


ARR was just a rush to get something that was playable out the door. A lot of the old plot elements from the OG 1.0 before 1.2 were changed or dropped altogether and it became a "Final Fantasy theme park" with much more fantastical design elements and a pretty black and white plot. The Scions and Minfilia continued their roles from 1.0 to be our story guides.

HW refined that a bit more with a political storyline overlapping fighting dragons in a war that was caused by the people of the city the expansion takes place in. HW also is where they seemed to start to build the classic "FF party" during our journey to Hraesvelgr with Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud.

SB took that party concept again with Alisae and Lyse following us on our adventurers after thinning out the cast by removing the extraneous Scion, Papalymo and before writing Lyse out to do, whatever role she is now so that the cast herd is more manageable.

ShB, now flush with all that successful MMO cash took the thinned out herd of characters and was able to concentrate more deeply on them for a longer period of time since the expansion story was longer than the first few. Each of the characters got focus during their own parts of the story before we brought them all together. The story also came back to the grey-morality plotline that SB skipped over.

I just see EW as an extension of what they were doing in ShB. We have these set characters now, and we focus on them and since they're altogether for large swaths of the expansion or at least come together at the end of every arc, we can have them interact with each other.

I don't see a lot of what's being complained about as a "specifically designated" tone shift, but just the director and the writers building on what they had until they found something they liked. It's also why I never figured they would ever write Hydaelyn/Venat as a bad character. They definitely dropped the ball on writing her motivations but the intention has from the very beginning for her to be a character you're supposed to support. And they gave nuance to the Ascians but when they were written back in ARR as "I don't know what their goal is but lets just have them do bad stuff", they were never meant to be the characters that would ultimately be fully vindicated and "win". Especially since their version of winning deletes the whole game map.