The great streamer Asmongold is joining FFXIV

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Like i said before though, i’m not even so much asking for death as i’m asking for consequence. There were almost no consequences for the main cast of ShB, despite it being the most gritty and darkest expansion against the strongest foes imaginable. Even the whole carteneu section of 5.55, despite going against lunar primals, no one in the main cast got hurt or had any consequences. I disagree with characters deaths making them less real. If anything it makes it more realistic. No one is ever safe when it comes to think like wars or apocalypses. People don’t have plot armor or plot devices in real life. They’re just as vulnerable to things as everyone else. There isn’t really a plot device either if the writers have to resort to plot armor and plot holes to keep characters alive, like i keep staying, Graha and Yshtola. That’s more of a detriment to the story than a character death (which can actually enhance the story) would ever be.

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It seems to me like you only view consequence to be a negative thing. Like I said, Alphinaud's story arc is about consequence. Just because he didn't die or get injured, it doesn't mean there was no consequence. And being a continuous story, it can be more appropriate to represent those consequences with the lesser/temporary characters. So you have physical consequence with Arenvalt (don't know spelling), consequence of separation with Lyna and Ryne separating from the Exarch and Thancred respectively. And yes, you do have death with Alisae's friend.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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I disagree. It may be a game, but you are talking to and about real people unless you are constantly in RP mode. The game is just a medium where the chat box happens to be. It's why social interactions are not regulated by the game rating, because those interactions are not actually part of the game, though they are connected.

And yes, trash talk is trash talk, but it has its context. You don't just trash talk everywhere, and PvE should not be about competition.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We’ve gone years with people constantly praising this game as the greatest community ever and there’s a large majority of people who constantly get spoon fed by SE or the community in that this game can do no wrong and this community is perfect, and then gaslight whenever someone calls it out.

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Except I don't think that's the case at all. So, to me, it's more like people are setting up "strawmans" most of the time. "Can do no wrong" and "perfect" are not words I usually see with respect to this community except when used by people who are criticizing the community.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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I've never taken into the train of thought that just because I'm online that it's free rein to be a jerk. Though I imagine what we consider that threshold to be very different.
Trash talking in a sport or competition is a thing yeah but how that does apply to being "proud to be toxic" in general? And once again we see complaints which boil down to problems with individuals. Why do THESE individuals get chosen to define the community rather than the neutral majority?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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Is the difference that it's a game? Or is the difference there are absolutely no real life consequences?
Not a judgement call on you personally but I find people are very willing to "trash talk" and try to normalize it when there's no accountability whatsoever but once presented with consequences for their actions they're suddenly unwilling to spout the same vitriol even though the excuse should be the same.

Trash talk is not "a part of sports" anymore than being a bad sport is. It happens, that's all. People can have a competitive environment without being personally insulting. People can jab and banter without calling peoples actual lives into question. Victim blaming by saying "it's just a game, why are you taking it so personally" after telling people to off themselves (yes an extreme example but not unheard of) is not excusing them from what they just said.

I don't expect everyone to PG their conversation for competitive games, but it gets taken wayyy too far, far too often and then people try to hide behind it being just a game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

People can go ahead and say “well those people don’t count for the community as a whole,” and while that is partially true, it doesn’t change the fact that it is a reoccurring problem with this community and it seems like this community specifically. People who are upset at the people that constantly call the toxicity out, please think about it from their perspective. We’ve gone years with people constantly praising this game as the greatest community ever and there’s a large majority of people who constantly get spoon fed by SE or the community in that this game can do no wrong and this community is perfect, and then gaslight whenever someone calls it out.

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We've also gone years with people saying this community is full of hypocritical bigots... so who is gaslighting who?



Both groups are present, loud representatives of both will try to say the other is the liar. The truth being it's just a game community. Every time I see one side, i will see the other loudly try to proclaim they're wrong and that the opposite is true as you are doing now.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

. Especially when they completely write over and ignore plot points the writers THEMSELVES WROTE, just to keep someone alive. It’s when it starts contradicting itself that i lose interest in the plot. Arr had consequences, HW had consequences, SB had consequences.

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Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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I mean, let's be honest here. "Aether" is this game's deus ex machina. It seems like you can do anything the plot calls for by manipulating this "aether" in various ways.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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“They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive.” Except at the end of ShB there were literally two major plot holes and plot armor created to keep both us and everyone else alive that contradicted lore points they set up throughout the entire expansion. Also, the foes we faced in ShB are literally foes we’ve never faced anything like before. We had major consequences and deaths against foes much lesser than them but somehow in the expansion where the threats are bigger and things are less in our favor we somehow come out unscathed? Sorry but that just doesn’t make sense. Again, it’s a spit in your face because you’re taking it as some personal attack on yourself and your *opinion*. You think the plot is fine as is. I partially disagree. There’s nothing wrong with that i’m just merely giving my opinion that a lot of people also agree with.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

I think the story has had a problem for a while now where there is actually very little at stake for those of us who don't buy into melodrama as a narrative device. A lot of us know that nothing is actually going to happen to the likes of Aymeric, Y'shtola and Alphinaud whenever they're on screen so after a certain point it becomes tiresome whenever the threat of a fake death emerges.

We're approaching the final arc of the game's first major story arc and if nobody of note is going to die during a recreation of an apocalypse then I don't consider that to be a ringing endorsement of the game's storytelling. It'd be nice to have some genuinely shocking moments - because this is a Final Fantasy game and the single player titles haven't exactly avoided such things within their own narratives.

I guess I just think that it's one of those situations where some people are going to be able to separate themselves from whatever bias they have for a character and others can or will not do so. There's a lot of characters I like in this game, though I'd be fine with them dying if it were handled well.

I also don't really count what happened in 5.55 to be much in the way of a consequence. The character in question, as much as I like him, is very minor and he's been absent from the main story for a while now already. Bringing him back just to have him bound to a wheelchair felt like a waste. He could have stepped up and replaced one of the more stagnant characters instead. Or, perhaps, he could have actually have been killed off.

It's not a case of asking for death for the sake of death. I just think it's poor form to setup a major threat and then have very little of note happen.

Shadowbringers was meant to be about exploring a completely different world and yet the majority of our traveling companions consist of characters we have spent time with already. I'd hate to see story arcs after Endwalker devolve into just going to, say, the inner provinces of Hingashi only to have the characters from the region itself sidelined in favour of following Alphinaud and Y'shtola around yet again.

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

“They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive.” Except at the end of ShB there were literally two major plot holes and plot armor created to keep both us and everyone else alive that contradicted lore points they set up throughout the entire expansion. Also, the foes we faced in ShB are literally foes we’ve never faced anything like before.

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First bit, let me tell you straight up that yes you have faced enemies similar to the lightwardens, It's called Primals and their ability to temper? Lightwardens are in a way more corrupted primals that have a focus on an element that just mindlessly kill everything.

Secondly I'm very curious of your two plot holes. Cause So far I didn't see them and even if you considered them plot holes I'm going to disagree with you outright. Your "Opinion" on wanting more dark things to happen is goofy and it will in my "Opinion" Fail the plot and make the story too predictable.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

I mean, let's be honest here. "Aether" is this game's deus ex machina. It seems like you can do anything the plot calls for by manipulating this "aether" in various ways.

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This guy right here knows exactly what my point. Aether is the main focal point to why alot of people get away with things, and I think that doesn't make the story bad. It just explains what the world is like more and more.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

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Yeah, I agree with this. I'm sure later on Something involving what she keeps doing is going to come at her in a very negative way and the WoL and the others gotta take care of it somehow.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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I honestly would really like to see every class quest npc have some kind of involvement to the endwalker storyline. Where they themselves have VA's and all that cool stuff. As someone who has played every single class quest I really like every npc character, I wanna see more about each character and what they are doing to help prevent the end of days.

It's an MMO. By it's very nature it's going to need to appeal to a broad range of tastes and not just a select few. Which goes for the story as well. I don't think we need to resort to gatekeeping to prevent anything bad ever happening to any of the major characters for increasingly contrived reasons.

A good story has stakes, especially one that intends to explore mature themes.

I'm also a little confused by the implication that the story would be 'predictable' if something bad happened when the story has, for a while now, had the player character save the day again and again for years with everything wrapping up in a neat little bow in the vast majority of cases.

Surely it'd be unpredictable for either a minor or major antagonist to succeed at killing someone of note off at this point rather than throwaway or secondary characters?

Thankfully the writer of Endwalker stated during Fan Fest that players should be prepared to say goodbye to some of the characters - so with any luck, that means we might see a few perish this time around.