I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Mithron

It's still the morally correct thing to do; to continue venting, asking, posting, and being an overall annoyance to the devs and/or community (the ones that are wrong in the community, of course) until it happens, even if it doesn't ever happen.

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Mithron, complain because you like it, not because you think you have some moral obligation towards the game or it's players or the devs. You don't. Nobody cares.

In fact I think morality comes into play when you have to convince yourself that there is still a good reason to continue even though you long since lost all enjoyment with it. You should love shitting on the game. It shouldn't be a heckin' moral burden.

If you like the game and want it to be better, then you have a moral obligation to continue pushing to make it better in whatever way you can. Ideally you'd force positive change with organized armed revolution, but since this is just a video game it's not worth that. Of course you can quit, but at that point you don't really like the game or want it to be better. It's more of a "I don't care either way" feeling, which you no longer have the moral obligation. And that's fine too because it's just a video game, not politics. But if you still like the game or want it to be better, then you do have that moral obligation to be a constant about it. To voice, to influence, to annoy, whatever it is, do it. It's not about what other people think, it's not about who cares or who doesn't, it's not even about being successful in actually changing the game or not. It's about doing the right thing because it's right. Which is exactly what honor and integrity is about; it has nothing to do with what others think about you or SE being a business or any other external variable.

I loved what this game was, I hate what it's became and is becoming. I do not want to see a game that I considered to be an actual good FF and an actual good MMO both go down without me at least trying against it. Whether I'm successful or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that I tried, and at some point when it's too far gone, then I can stop caring and then stop supporting it or trying. FFXIV isn't too far gone yet, but it's getting there.

Funny thing is, we actually have a movie that illustrates this point. Not the source we would expect it to be from, but there nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO5gXBF559I

Of course, it is more complicated than simply doing the same thing over and over again. There are times we must choose our battles too. We can't help someone who doesn't want our help at all. But even knowing this, nobody is going to know what we want or need if we don't even try to say anything to begin with. We at least need to try since there is a whole crowd of people to sift through.

Making sure that this is also close to the first page as well. Having done the recent msq quest as white mage and as usual it was pretty dang boring.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

There are times we must choose our battles too. We can't help someone who doesn't want our help at all.

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I never really agreed with this mindset because the battle has already been chosen for you, and even if they don't want to be helped, it's still your obligation to at least plant the seed by attempting. He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral, and he who doesn't attempt to help when help is clearly needed is also immoral. Whether you help them or not is irrelevant, it's fact you tried. Somebody somewhere is depending on you to do what only you can do, even if you judge them as not wanting your help at all. Sometimes, it's not even by helping the guy who doesn't want to be helped, but rather in your attempt to help is when someone else sees that attempt and you influence and help them from watching your actions and words. Like arguing with a guy in public; that guy may never change, but the points you make and bring up and say has everyone else around you listening and you may be changing and influencing them, saying exactly what they needed you to say but you'd never know.

Your voice is useless if you don't use it.

I think we are in more agreement than you realize here, but sure. I can elaborate on the point you quoted, Mithron. There are currently 3 reasons I can think of where we may need to consider walking away for choosing our battles.


1. There are multiple right answers to a situation

In this case scenario, there is likely little reason to antagonize the person you are disagreeing with. You can still share your ideas, but you may need to agree to disagree.


2. The person is too high-strung to listen

This one can be a case-by-case basis for what is happening. Maybe the person hates admitting something is wrong with what they are doing. It could have been the right answer in the past with times changing (which happens a lot for MMO expansions changing classes). Maybe the person has been a victim of too many narcissists gas-lighting them. Whatever the case, the first step to solving the problem is usually for the person to admit something is wrong in the first place. If their pride is still in the way while they argue with you, everyone else may just see 2 angry people causing unrest. It may end up consuming too much of your time away from your real life duties since these types of arguments may make the person more resistant to listening as they get more angry. If there is any chance for them to listen, they will need to calm down first. Sometimes that requires walking away temporarily to think things over for both parties.


3. The person is a troll causing problems

Not much can be done when you are contending with this type of person. Their goals are typically to cause unrest and / or receive attention through negative behavior. It's usually best to ignore them and continue your conversation with the other people like as if the troll is not there. Report the troll if they start walking across too many grey lines to break the ToS if you have to.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

1. There are multiple right answers to a situation

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Sometimes, sure, but there's also multiple wrong answers to a situation, which is the point of the attempt. I may not convince the person immediately in that conversation, but later down the line they may think back on it and change from the influence seed I planted before. Even if they don't, I tried, and that's what matters more.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

2. The person is too high-strung to listen.

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So? Same point as 1. It's not always about changing them specifically (because you can influence other people listening in) or changing them right now. It's not even about changing them at all; it's about the attempt to.

The way I see this is the same way I would see an injured person on the road; I may not know how to save them or even if I can, but I'm still gonna try and not just "choose my battle" and walk away. Of course a video game is much different than a real life threatening situation, but the principle is still exactly the same to me.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

3. The person is a troll causing problems

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Well good! These are the best kind of people to interact with because you can shut them down with good rhetoric and logic, circling them into admitting fault through a entrapment. This causes public humiliation (something most men would rather die than deal with), discredits them and makes your case look much stronger. The trolls are the best ones for helping others change. The only ammo they have is all based on logical fallacies, which is easy to counter. Ad hominem and appeal to authority are always the most common ones, I find.

The goal isn't to avoid unrest. You should have unrest in a negative environment. The goal is to attempt improvement towards a positive environment.

I'm really enjoying this discussion! It's fun to have these deeper conversations, thanks for your thoughts. It makes us all think more!

Believe me. I have done the things you have suggested too, Mithron. In most cases, it is usually successful as long as you are respectful to the others. I am trying to account for those other few instances where a true brick wall is hit. Some of my points came from experience when I was in the Warcraft game. I have to learn the hard way that not everyone will like me and some will decide to be my enemy with no way for me to control it. But as you said, we still tried our best to help them using our voice. I can agree that the help may be taken indirectly by other bystanders.

My second point may sound moot to you, but I have honest to god encountered players who will not accept help. Period. A few actually dug their heels down to the ground, called me stupid for asking if he used some cooldowns to preserve his mana (Healer Priest Class) and then said he refuses to listen unless I am in Germany sitting by his desk >.> Umm, right ... he wants to pay for my flight from Canada then? He would rather blame the person trying to help him while he complained about going oom way faster than me at the same time. It was also an expansion change from Wrath to Cata when spamming Flash Heal started to cost way more mana and the devs wanted us to use the efficient Heal more often. We still used Flash Heal, but more so when the enemies did their versions of tank busters, if you know what I mean.

As for the third point ... I hate to break it to you, but some problem trolls are not embarrassed by exposing logic on them. Some will instead cherry pick your words for the next response or ignore your "killing blow" while recycling points that were already beaten at the start of the conversation. It's a strange fixation on always getting the last word for them even if their point is nonsense and doesn't count. In fact, they successfully do get attention rather easily for posting something nonsensical. Some posters even said it was their "last word", but the troll roped 'em in again with illogical points.

I have more such stories, but this post is starting to get big. Sometimes we need to know when to call it quits based on these points. I have been able to diffuse anger before so they were more able to listen. It's not 100% guaranteed to happen though since this is partially out of our control if the other party decides to calm down and humble themselves.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

It's still the morally correct thing to do; to continue venting, asking, posting, and being an overall annoyance to the devs and/or community (the ones that are wrong in the community, of course) until it happens, even if it doesn't ever happen.

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I think what's worse is that when the lead developer does see our frustrations, the question is highly mistranslated and he brushes them off: "If you want more engaging content go play ultimate".

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.