How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So...you're just assuming that those players who got on your case did so because of your tank DPS? Something doesn't add up. Again, a lot of players generally don't care about tank DPS like that.

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What doens't add up? Are you presuming I'm lying about my concern about losing hate? Cause if you are, why? Keeping hate is the first priority of a tank, always and forever, to fail at that, is to fail at everything. Tanking 101. Why would you presume I am ignoring that basic rule, for DPS? I don't lose hate, if I do, it's tragic...I beat myself up more than any remark ever will when it happens.

I can't convince you, which is what irritates me more than the past few hours of conversation. If you think I'm receiving the hate for other, more basic reasons...I can't stop you, try as I might. Honestly? I'm really hoping you are right, that it isn't dps...it's just because they have a hair up their ass, or I used cooldowns at the wrong time or something. But if it's anything I actually do right on a tank, it's holding hate.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Okay well let me rephrase my initial question.

You said basically this: 'parsers won't noticeably improve overall player skill' changed the order of words around to make it more clear but this is what you said.

So I am asking you...how do you know it won't? Facts? Proof? Anything? If not, I am pretty sure it is just an opinion and can't be used to claim what you said in this quote here.

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You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

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Originally Posted by Miste

This is irrelevant anecdotal data. FFXIV is not WoW. It cannot be used to claim that everything that happens in that game would happen here.

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Then please enlighten me as to what is so special about FFXIV players that what parsers did in WoW would not be similar to FFXIV?

I'm sure you'll respond with equally anecdotal data.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.



Then please enlighten me as to what is so special about FFXIV players that what parsers did in WoW would not be similar to FFXIV?

I'm sure you'll respond with equally anecdotal data.

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Well your first issue is "what parsers did in WoW" isn't even something you've proven beyond anecdote either.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Please direct me to where I said people should observe everything and that it was even possible. I think you'll find I said no such thing.

I said some things can be spotted without a parser. Not everything. I also said some things are too subtle to spot without a parser or you may too busy to see it yourself. I even said several times that parsers are excellent tools for this.

I agree that being expected to watch everything is nonsense...hence why I didn't say it!

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You said to watch the effects and animations that are occurring from other players when anyone could have had other player animations turned off. You also tried to make it seem like all you need is "personal observation" during a savage raid, when your main focus and observations should be on what the boss is casting and the mechanics that are occurring. Most people don't even check the logs for basic dungeons and old content unless someone is causing the party to fail repeatedly. You admit that a parser can help point out the things that you won't catch, and those small or uncaught mistakes is what can end an ultimate raid. So what were you correcting again? Because it seems like you're deliberately misreading what I'm posting.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My apologies. I just had someone else accuse me of stating players should be able to watch everything in combat and spot all mistakes without a parser when I said no such thing and I even said parsers are great tools for this. I feel like they're deliberately misreading what I say.

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You asking everyone else to babysit someone who doesn't even know how to play their class properly or even have proper gear at endgame is what is insulting. Yeah, the game has a bunch of little things happening all at once, wonder if you should be watching for players who aren't playing/geared properly or actually focusing on the fight instead.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But let's not suggest that parsers are the only way of seeing whether someone is pressing the right buttons or not, because that is simply not true.

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Of course it's not, so what's your point anyway? My initial examples were taken from another players logs so I'm obviously talking about just the parser data. Not your personal observations in a basic duty where you don't even need a parser to see who is bad.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

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I'll find it is not? Are you sure? I think you made the incorrect assumption that I have not played WoW (I've played all expacs since BC). You also seem to think that your experience is the only point of view that exists and what you experienced must be what everyone else will experience too. A singular brush stroke does not make you see the entire painting.

This is anecdotal, but if you want my opinion on my experiences in WoW....

In my experience WoW's average player skill is higher than FFXIV, but this is just my experience so I can't use such a thing to claim the parser did that or not. No one has the proper data to make a determination on that except Blizzard.

In my experience there was not a higher frequency of parser related drama or kicks.

So our experiences differ, this kinda casts doubt on you using these anecdotes as factual data when someone else can have an opposite experience compared to yours.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Then please enlighten me as to what is so special about FFXIV players that what parsers did in WoW would not be similar to FFXIV?

I'm sure you'll respond with equally anecdotal data.

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Why do I have to do that? Burden of proof is on you since you claimed that parsers won't have any noticeable improvement to player skill based on your personal experiences on a totally different game.

You have to prove that your anecdotal WoW experiences can be used as factual data to claim that everything that happens in that game to do with parsing will automatically happen here in FFXIV, since that is what you initially claimed which I challenged you on.

You can't just try to mental gymnastics flip this on me somehow, it is not going to work.

By your logic we might as well claim that 7.0 expac is going to automatically fail since Warlords suffered that fate on WoW. Since it happened in WoW it must be the same here, right? Different situation I know, but it is the same line of reasoning. You can obviously see how flawed using that as fact or proof really is.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

*snip*

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On the wow beta. and again today, unable to says which comunity get the best "average gameplay level".
Fights a clearly different, WoW get PTR where some fight are tried before. Wow also get more steps to train boss after boss during a tier. (where on FF you have to do monster jumps).

But, what makes me laugh when you speak "when parser became common" ok... so when? i use parser on wow from the end of vanilla. Due to vanilla/BC i played mainly with players with parsers. because no duty finder (so less random people)
Kick? yes, it is real, during BC and WOTLK, there was tendency to get more kick in the parties, but... not "because parser" in fact, but "because parser shows people are underperforming" also, in BC i was from those guys complaining about abusiv kick, i saw so much people kicked "because not enough damages" without even asking if their class, spec, the fight they were in would fit this class. some class are really strongher in multitarget fight, and others more in one target...

Also another thing about "more kick" before current WOTLK (3.2 or 3.3) we had no DF for PvE content. it appear during WOTLK, we did discover at this time to play with fully random people, sometime from other servers. with all sillyness we can fidn (from any kind of player...) And, it made a spike of kick.
You think there were no selection during BC or Vanilla when doing HL dongeon or raid? Sure? I did sometime parties for dongeons for the "herodays". I did inspect all people wanting to join the party, checking their enchant and gems to be sure they at least did not random gear. And i can say i was not alone. maybe we were only 10% or 20% to do this in dont know and dont care, but we didnt wait parsing results to consider who accept or deny in the parties...

Even on FF, when people says "ilvl 23786 needed" it is to be nearly sure there will be enough damages. achievment + ilvl this is the same thing than parser. but... sometime, you should took the i360 guy there more than the 370 in your team, because the first one get an excellent mastery of his job, not the i370 one... Parser show this more than ilvl+achievment

And yes, if we get official parser, first we will see more kick. some are intended due to lack of gameplay level. some maybe abusiv.
but people have to learn to read parser, it is not just "hey, i did 1000 dps more than you" ... What many thought and always think

Kicking due to bad stats is thing that come fast = you watch, you see, you kick.
Getting better gameplay due to parser, it is longer. then, consider you need to improve, find the matters, try different things, again and again. Parser does not improve gameplay level and does not kick people, it shows statistics. kick a low DPS guy is a fast thing to do, improve yourself is much longer


But when i read you, i am right to consider you want no kick due to performance? If yes, this is the point that do we cant speak together. we dont have the same mind about the game.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

This may be news to you, but most people usually aren't looking up an in game combo list when playing any fighting game on the hardest mode. If they are, they probably won't get that far. If you need to look up a rotation mid fight during any savage content, chances are you'll die or get hit before even exiting the "rotation list." The game has an in game tutorial for each type of role, guildheists to practice, beginner dungeons, and practice parties as well for endgame. So there isn't any excuse when it comes to a scrub needing help on how to play. Not to mention, the parser would help them even more since players outside of the instance can see what they did wrong.

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No one is talking about doing it mid fight. This game gives you no real indication that your about to hit a major wall. Up until that moment you have been led to believe that you have been doing fine. so you unlock hit que up in df or join a learning party and you get smashed and you have no idea what your doing wrong. And a player dawns it on you that you've been terrible the entire time you've been playing this game wrong that entire time you thought you were winning.

There is no real indication that this stuff your about to do is the hardest in this game. Most of those games for their hardest modes have a little description something like "you will not survive" "For players looking for the most brutal experience" things like that and that option is before you even start the game not when you've hit max level.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

No one is talking about doing it mid fight. This game gives you no real indication that your about to hit a major wall. Up until that moment you have been led to believe that you have been doing fine. so you unlock hit que up in df or join a learning party and you get smashed and you have no idea what your doing wrong. And a player dawns it on you that you've been terrible the entire time you've been playing this game wrong that entire time you thought you were winning.

There is no real indication that this stuff your about to do is the hardest in this game. Most of those games for their hardest modes have a little description something like "you will not survive" "For players looking for the most brutal experience" things like that and that option is before you even start the game not when you've hit max level.

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Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

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True, the devs need to do a better job of indicating and teaching people how to play the game so at least the opener because that sets you up for the rest of any encounter. Players shouldn't have to direct slower/weaker plays to a discord. as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

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I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...