Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I don't know people's circumstances. For what I know, they could have an impairment, or quite simply they could jus be another dude who worked 14 hours (which is something I intimately understand) and at long last is just taking it easy playing an easy role in an easy game.

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I'd say most of us actually don't have problems with those people. The ones I'm having issues with are those who not only refuse to try contributing dps while healing but also go on crusades claiming not dpsing is the correct way to play healers, which is just outright wrong and stupid. Worse if they're "teaching" new players about it that way. It's as ridiculous as telling a new blm that it's fine to be an ice mage in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

A "modicum of effort" has different definitions for different people in different circumstances. What can be easy as pie for me, can be difficult for others. I don't go out of my way to assume that the one I have in front of me has the experience, hand-eye coordination, physical ability or simply the energy to do more than his job. And most content in this game is designed so that if everyone does "his job" the party will be successful.

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I get what you are saying, and you genuinely seem like a kind and sympathetic person, but at the end of the day these are group activities. The majority (or two out of four in the case of light parties) ends up with the power to dictate what is and is not acceptable in a given run.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Now, even if that was a paraphrase(which to anyone who views the video that it isn't) Yoshi P made it clear that if a person plays a healer....the game has been designed it for Healer DPS to be a OPTIONAL CHOICE! Not a required one.

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I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, here. My interpretation of Yoshi P's response is that he's stating, as a developer, that content isn't designed in such a way as to require Healer classes to deal damage. In other words, if someone is a new player, feeling uncertain about their tank, etc., worry not - you're not going to cause a wipe if you focus on keeping everyone alive to the exclusion of all else.

That does not, however, mean it is optional in the eyes of the community, nor should it be. The rationale for Healer classes contributing damage almost never arises out of a concern for being able to clear content - it arises out of a desire for everyone to contribute equally, to give a sh*t. Whether Yoshi P agrees with that or not is utterly irrelevant. He can comfort and defend all the would-be healers out there - it simply doesn't matter. The community is what determines appropriate behaviour, not the developers. And speaking for myself, as a member of the community, I expect everyone to care. I expect everyone to try. For Healer classes, that means throwing in some damage here or there when everyone's topped off and there's nothing else demanding their attention. If that never happens? If the fight is chaotic, or a particular healer is under-geared, or the DD are AoE magnets? No worries on my part.

My problem is with laziness. And I don't give a rat's ass if Yoshi P designed the game around Healer classes dealing damage, or around Healer classes being expected to deal damage, or around coddling lazy players - I'm still not going to tolerate excessive amounts of it in my party companions.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

A "modicum of effort" has different definitions for different people in different circumstances. What can be easy as pie for me, can be difficult for others. I don't go out of my way to assume that the one I have in front of me has the experience, hand-eye coordination, physical ability or simply the energy to do more than his job. And most content in this game is designed so that if everyone does "his job" the party will be successful.

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I believe in this circumstance a "modicum of effort" is trying, no one is expecting a set amount of required DPS, but effort in trying at all is where the expectation begins.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

I just realized the drama unfolding with this kitti person. This is super entertaining. :x

People get so salty when it comes to healer DPS. I'll never understand why. Those in the pro-healer DPS camp just support your growth and progress as a player. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either way though. /popcorn

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I know right? I am only participating because I find debating to be fun. Of course I have my own viewpoint and stance, but I probably wouldn't be posting if I didn't find it so enjoyable. Also gives me something to do while waiting for the bus.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

I believe in this circumstance a "modicum of effort" is trying, no one is expecting a set amount of required DPS, but effort in trying at all is where the expectation begins.

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For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Come on! Forum Fantasy is all we have until Stormblood drops.

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This person knows what's up!

En Garde!

Your horn vs my rapier! Forum Style!

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Originally Posted by missybee

I think the vast majority of players are completely fine with people doing their "personal best."

I just don't believe for a moment that someone is doing their personal best if they pop a regen on the tank and then proceed to do the Vanu dance until all of the trash is dead.

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I would posit that the Vanu dance is VERY important to the success of the team however, it should REALLY be the Manderville dance as any true healer would know. ^_^

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Lazy player argument.

Every player should try and spend every gcd on a skill useful for the group.


The content design in this game doesn't require healing fulltime, there will be healing downtime.



Keeping your party safe should be a very high priority for a healer.
But, after that there's nothing else to do but spend those gcd's on damage.

If we compare healers and other classes...
A healer who only has to heal every 6~10 seconds and refuses to do damage in the meantime is equivalanet to another class using a skill every 3rd or 4th gcd.

This is not parity.
This is laziness.

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Not really? As in the first example you complete the duty just fine. Whereas in the 2nd you don't. That's the difference between performing your actual role and not. Healers dpsing is performing outside their role, above and beyond 100%. That's to be expected in bleeding edge stuff like savage but, no, not for the other 99% of this game lol.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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I think people would be hard-pressed to defend this definition of "trying".

Tanks and damage-dealing classes are expected to stay on top of their GCD throughout combat. They're expected to not just auto-attack, but engage in actions, handle positioning, etc. That involves vastly more effort than focusing on healing alone. I could twiddle my thumbs and watch Netflix for 80% of an average Roulette dungeon, as a Healer class, while similar behaviour as a tank or DD would cause a wipe and/or get me kicked in a heartbeat.

So, what, are the "many" people you reference cool with one role being allowed to half-ass its way through content while the other two roles need to expend constant effort?

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

Not really? As in the first example you complete the duty just fine. Whereas in the 2nd you don't. That's the difference between performing your actual role and not. Healers dpsing is performing outside their role, above and beyond 100%. That's to be expected in bleeding edge stuff like savage but, no, not for the other 99% of this game lol.

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I don't think it's appropriate to just focus on content completion. FFXIV's content, outside of Savage / Extreme fights, is often so easy that a trained team of monkeys could pull off a win. Players should primarily be judged on whether or not they perform their role adequately; a secondary judgment should take into account whether or not they really seemed to try. For DD, that might be whether they made an effort to avoid AoE effects, or just sat mindlessly damaging the boss. For tanks, it might be whether they let adds beat on the healer / DD players, or if they appropriately snapped them up and minimized damage. For healers, it's throwing in a bit of damage. None of these behaviours are essential outside of the hardest content, but players who display an utter lack of desire to bother with these non-essential responsibilities deserve every bit of criticism they get.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Boosting my ego

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Ok I'll bite one more time.

You don't feel compelled to carry someone through a dungeon, but you join the DF, where quite a few people expect to be carried and/or have different ways of playing. See the problem? You're expecting perfection and a style of play from people you don't know and people who basically don't owe you a damn thing. If they are flat out afking and not doing their job properly? Fine vote kick them. But if the run is going smoothly then why get so damn picky about shaving off a few seconds each fight? You say that you shouldn't have to make your own group to get the runs you want, that is called being entitled. You tell me I should make my own group instead, I don't have to because I will play with anyone, yes even someone like yourself.

Bottom line; stop playing with random people if it upsets you so much. I'd be more concerned with the people who can't heal, or tanks who can't hold threat if I were you.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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Sorry i should have said effort above the bare minimum, I think doing the actions required to your role is the bare minimum.