Seems like alot of people want this game to become Free 2 Play. >.>

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Originally Posted by Nahaara

More like get his posting privelages suspended.

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Yep and not only that it just tick people off even more by "personally" insulting them. No Civilized talking allowed right? XD.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

Yes, but people still left. It couldn't justify it's price to some people. When you now compare active subscribers to other MMO's you see a chunk of players it could have had if maybe it were still free.

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They were getting access to all game content for free, though. That's not the same as a free to play model by a longshot.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I'm not attacking his argument with the fact that he's stupid, just his person. I'd suggest you learn the definition of an ad hominem before you accuse me for using one.

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My mistake, yours is an ad hominem fallacy in reverse. There should be a proper fallacy for arguments like "you are wrong, and therefore stupid". We could call it the "Ingolf fallacy".

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Yep and not only that it just tick people off even more by "personally" insulting them. No Civilized talking allowed right? XD.

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I just think you're a bad representative of this community. I get on with most people, but you're just past the line of my tolerance.

I mean I haven't blocked someone on these forums before, but it's almost at that point. I think a lot of people can be a bit silly, but you're the only flat out stupid person here. It hurts me deep in my heart that I might have to actually block you so my blood pressure goes down a few notches.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

My mistake, yours is an ad hominem fallacy in reverse. There should be a proper fallacy for arguments like "you are wrong, and therefore stupid". We could call it the "Ingolf fallacy".

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Well it's not a fallacy at all. If it was a fallacy there would be some logical discrepancies.

Me calling someone stupid for no reason isn't a fallacy, it's an opinion.

I know that you're trying to use "logical fallacy" and "Ad hominem" because you heard them as buzzwords somewhere, but it's not a good gambit when you don't understand what they are.

He's not wrong necessarily. Just stupid.

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I mean I haven't blocked someone on these forums before

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You'll do me a favor then ^.^

P.S Your the 2nd Rudest person on these forums, the 1st shall not be named.

P.S.S If your Blood boils over 1 person, then you have anger issues x.x. I'm sorry I make you feel that way, but I'm not changing who I am, so if blocking me helps with your cause then by all means.

However, I don't go around and insulting people left and right because someone "Doesn't" agree with you. If anyone's blood should be boiling its me ( and it was when you keep repeating-ly calling me stupid). But I don't because this is the internet after all, so I just Laugh it off and move on.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Well it's not a fallacy at all. If it was a fallacy there would be some logical discrepancies.

Me calling someone stupid for no reason isn't a fallacy, it's an opinion.

I know that you're trying to use "logical fallacy" and "Ad hominem" because you heard them as buzzwords somewhere, but it's not a good gambit when you don't understand what they are.

He's not wrong necessarily. Just stupid.

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1) Yes, it is a fallacy. Whether someone is wrong on a subject or not isn't a broad indication of their intelligence.

2) Fallacies and opinions are not mutually exclusive. Please stop pretending they are.

3) You just assumed that since I mislabeled your opinion as an argument ad hominem that I heard it as a 'buzzword' somewhere, implying that I don't really understand what logical fallacies are. Certainly sounds like another Ingolf fallacy to me.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

1) Yes, it is a fallacy. Whether someone is wrong on a subject or not isn't a broad indication of their intelligence.

2) Fallacies and opinions are not mutually exclusive. Please stop pretending they are.

3) You just assumed that since I mislabeled your opinion as an argument ad hominem that I heard it as a 'buzzword' somewhere, implying that I don't really understand what logical fallacies are. Certainly sounds like another Ingolf fallacy to me.

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1. I wasn't calling him stupid based on the fact that he was incorrect on this subject, it's through lurking these forums and seeing the things he spews out regularly.

2. They are not mutually exclusive, but the opinion that "You are stupid" after seeing him post idiotically time and time again is not a logical fallacy.

3. It was an educated guess. This post further cements my initial argument too.

The problem with free to play models is inherent to the design model that has to be implemented to continue supporting the game. Inevitably people will get bored with the items that are available inside the games store. This requires the designed to come up with a constant stream of new Items to fill the void.

Unfortunately, purely cosmetic items fail to fill this void. Players will ultimately have the look they want and new cosmetic items will not move them to give addition money to the company. So naturally the design team must start implementing items that allow some level of assistance to the user.

The problem here being, they cannot make those Items powerful enough to have a significant impact on game play or risk falling in to the trap of becoming Pay to Win. Players rather quickly recognize the fairly uselessness of these items and stop paying for them.

This pushes the team to come up with a way to make a large series of advancement types that take excessively long amounts of time, just so they can implement items to speed up that process. Which of course leads to things like achievement accelerators, trivializing any sense of achievement.

When all these sources of income become essentially useless, the team must begin to increase the rate at which content is release and require users to buy access to new regions quests and new dungeons. Development speed must be rapidly increased while the costs have to reduced.

This significantly impacts the quality of content, art, and all other aspects of development suffers.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

1. I wasn't calling him stupid based on the fact that he was incorrect on this subject, it's through lurking these forums and seeing the things he spews out regularly.

2. They are not mutually exclusive, but the opinion that "You are stupid" after seeing him post idiotically time and time again is not a logical fallacy.

3. It was an educated guess. This post further cements my initial argument too.

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Lol you go as low as putting that as part of your sig, lol you are one strange man x.x.

Edit: And that right there just furthers my point on how you are beyond rude on these forums.

1) Just like the things you spew out regularly? Personal attacks must turn you on or something >.>.

I don't think you calling him rude bothers him.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I don't think you calling him rude bothers him.

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It really hurts me, it's like someone has stabbed my heart with a dagger made of tears and regret.

HI GRAMUL

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I don't think you calling him rude bothers him.

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Of Course it doesn't, but I am just pointing out a fact that's what his personality is towards me right now ( and to everyone in (general).

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

1. I wasn't calling him stupid based on the fact that he was incorrect on this subject, it's through lurking these forums and seeing the things he spews out regularly.

2. They are not mutually exclusive, but the opinion that "You are stupid" after seeing him post idiotically time and time again is not a logical fallacy.

3. It was an educated guess. This post further cements my initial argument too.

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Your educated guess was wrong, then. I'm simply being lazy because double checking whether or not I've labeled your argument correctly no longer affects my grade.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you think people deserve it, you're being an asshole. You should either block him or move on to more substantive topics.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Your educated guess was wrong, then. I'm simply being lazy because double checking whether or not I've labeled your argument correctly no longer affects my grade.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you think people deserve it, you're being an asshole. You should either block him or move on to more substantive topics.

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:( :( :( :( :( :(

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Listen to the audio. It gives great reasons why the p2p model is slowly starting to fail. Shunning a game because it doesn't have a subscription fee is very foolish. If you're truly getting $180 worth of gaming a year with a p2p MMO, then so be it.

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Are you trying to say that $180 a year is a lot? Because if you saw what one of my buddies spent on League of Legends in the passed 6 months your head would explode.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Just in case anyone is really curious here is the gem store

Do you have any problem with anything they're offering?

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Yes, actually I do. But you've already put your blinders on and refuse to understand why some folks don't like the idea of paying for said items. So there's no point itemizing them.

You want to know why F2P games are keeping a "high subscription base?" No one deactivates the "Free" subscription for a game they don't play, because there's no incentive to.

The numbers are likely falsely inflated by people that log on once every couple of weeks out of sheer boredom, and the profits come from a fraction of the playerbase. So let's talk AAA Titles. What do we have? SWTOR...started out P2P, sold almost 2 million copies, and then lost half their subscribers within 3 months forcing it to go f2p so the dedicated few could float the game rather than let it die. Profitable? I'm sure it is. But you won't see me reactivating my account just because it's now "free."

Lineage I :Shut down NA servers last year after a 13 year run because it had finally run it's course. P2P All the way. Asian servers still going strong, to the best of my knowledge on a p2p basis. Lineage II: Built around f2p motif. Currently clinging to life with just under 1M subscribers, mostly Asian. But it is on the decline, care to take a bet on how long it'll be before the US Servers are closed down in spite of F2P awesomeness? And then we have runescape. Originally truly F2P With the game's funding coming from in game advertising. Because I totally want commercials and banner ads in my video games. Started bleeding subscribers when they started screwing with the game's formula, and subsequently added monetary transactions, which quite frankly hasn't helped their user base looking at my charts.

Honorable Mentions: Warhammer, WoW clone that stripped off PvE content and went PVP only. F2P. peaked at 800,000. Currently down to a whopping 3 active servers. Age of Conan: Peaked at 700,000 players. went hybrid f2p in 2011, but still floundering around 100k subscribers.

Games with 1M + in subscriptions:

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

Games between 150k and 1M subscribers:

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Honestly by way of comparison, some of these "AAA" titles you guys are lauding as successful and/or saved by the f2p format are floundering and went f2p in a desperate attempt to save the game from the scrap yard. Others are still bleeding off in spite of moving to f2p. Point blank, if you make a game that's WORTH playing, people won't mind 10-15 bucks a month. For the rest, f2p might let the die hards and people that can't do math float the game for a couple more years. But these games aren't the raving successes you want them to be.

Aion, Eve, and Lineage II Seem to be exceptions to the rule here. But even so, Aion is on a slow decline and Lineage isn't showing growth.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Your educated guess was wrong, then. I'm simply being lazy because double checking whether or not I've labeled your argument correctly no longer affects my grade.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you think people deserve it, you're being an asshole. You should either block him or move on to more substantive topics.

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It's the internet some people will be this way he doesn't hurt me any

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Originally Posted by Levian

Honorable Mentions: Warhammer, WoW clone that stripped off PvE content and went PVP only. F2P. peaked at 800,000. Currently down to a whopping 3 active servers.

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Just to clarify, WAR is about as F2P as WoW. Being stuck in T1, and T1 scenarios, is basically a forever trial. It's a horrendous failure of a game that should have moved entirely to F2P some time ago, especially since Bioware is now doing the switch for TOR.

Overall, most "AAA" games do switch to F2P out of desperation and failing subscriptions.

As to whether or not FFXIV should move to F2P I see no reason for the switch. The game managed to stop from capsizing after launch and rewarded many loyal players with several months of "F2P"-esque conditions.

2.0, in my mind, is basically a new game and a game I feel worth a monthly subscription. Aside from that, the online business model for Final Fantasy has been much more accommodating in certain regards than other P2P MMOs. (paying for fewer character slots for a smaller monthly transaction)

Woops, the Wiki page on it had it labeled as f2p. I took that at face value.

At any rate, my point was people are no less afraid to pay 10-15 bucks a month now than they were in '03. Everything coming out doesn't need a certain subscription plan to be successful. A new game at this juncture just needs more polish than they did a few years back.

I will agree that it's a new game. I also agree that it's a little too early to be jumping the shark and climbing aboard the "f2p will save us" bandwagon. Whether or ot it's worth the subscription fee I cannot venture a guess until release of 2.0. But this much I can already assure you. If I don't feel the game is adequately amusing at launch of 2.0 I'll be discontinuing my subscription. And just like with TOR, if it goes F2P sometime thereafter, it won't be enough to sway me back.

I'm in this for content and game play, not a subscription plan. P2P/F2P won't be what sways me to send SE more money, enjoyment of the game will. They want my $120 a year for the next ~10 years 2.0 needs to live up to the hype. I'm here because I have faith that they've learned from the original release's fiasco, and have worked very hard to make the game enjoyable.

Just cause people complain about this game doesn't mean it should be F2P.. let the baddies leave :P

I think a lot of us do not factor in the Asian side of P2P or P2W, I think with yoshi-p getting the china go ahead is a BIG plus for FFXIV. I'm not sure how successful the final fantasy series there but you have to think. Also the JP side of things, people forget that JP is maybe the one of the reason why XI is going so strong today.

I do think they should have a certain level trial for people who want to try out the game, and play it for a bit. ARR is a relaunch if not a launch of a new game. so for now we have to treat it that way.

really pisses me off when i see a post on gametrailers/gamespot etc... and you got these idiots spamming " i aint playing it unless its F2P", "those graphics are outdated its looks like ff11" coming from people who play WoW and Guildwars which could easily be proven WoW has horrid graphics from the get go w/ all the painted on skins and potato head faces on humans. And Guildwards for a more modern MMO looks OUTDATED folks!. Yes i played it a co-worker bought it for me to try and get me to play it w/ him and i almost shat out my mouth from the overall poor quality of it all. Sure the dynamic events are nice and all but everything else is OLD and used. Cant wait till they introduce all the good looking weapons/armor and consumables and cash shop items and people can tell me how much they like there F2P then.

All I have to say is can there be less arguing and name calling and downright assholishness and more of this


http://www.boxbabble.com/p_images/pid7173_0.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rannie

All I have to say is can there be less arguing and name calling and downright assholishness and more of this


http://www.boxbabble.com/p_images/pid7173_0.jpg

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I ate a Taco 2 hrs ago! :D

pffft tacos=fail the whopper was where it's at rofl

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Originally Posted by Rannie

pffft tacos=fail the whopper was where it's at rofl

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Homemade is where its at bro! Homemade> Fast food :P and you know that people won't be spitting in your food =).

ok I'll give credit for the homemade stuff not the run for the border shit

This thread is now about tacos and their various forms.

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If most of the cries for "F2P or GTFO" are coming from places like gametrailers and gamespot I really don't think the actual FFXIV playerbase has any issue with a monthly subscription for a game that is only going to improve.

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Originally Posted by TTred

This thread is now about tacos and their various forms.

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If most of the cries for "F2P or GTFO" are coming from places like gametrailers and gamespot I really don't think the actual FFXIV playerbase has any issue with a monthly subscription for a game that is only going to improve.

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id love a taco of any kind right now but ive fallen ill w/ stomach of hell disease past few days. the doctor gives me something to drink at home to clean me out and in return i start vomiting instead lol.

I'm not arguing for or against but...

it'd definitely bring in a lot of players. :p

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Originally Posted by rockman0

I'm not arguing for or against but...

it'd definitely bring in a lot of players. :p

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Like jumpingggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

A game worth playing is worth paying.

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Originally Posted by SAMINUS

A game worth playing is worth paying.

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Couldn't say it better myself =).

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Originally Posted by Antipika

Now business model is linked to the quality of a community :confused:

Wait until ARR release, if the game become slightly popular, EN forums will just become even worse than they are now. WoW forum quality is horrible, yet the game is P2P last time I checked... If you want quality forums, you need a strict moderation. That's not happening here. While blatant violations are taken care of (insults etc.), trolling isn't. It would require lot of manpower.

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Idiots exist within every gaming community. Even FFXI. However the f2p community is far worse.

Go play Runescape, or Maplestory. Hell, go play Aion. That community has turned into a shithole pretty quickly. SWTOR had a terrible community (Bioware fans lol), but that's probably going to skyrocket in shitty players.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Like jumpingggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

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Jump party at 5!

I support free to play. I wish FFXIV would adopt a F2P model, I believe they would do better. It can work successfully and it gives the player a choice, they can casually log in and play every so often. Lets the company attract more players and at the same time make a lot of money on cash shop items. I really have no problem with cash shop items. I have a few free to play MMO installed just so I can pop in now and again see how they are going.

They could even go the guild wars route you buy the box then the game has no monthly fee. The sub fee is actually a big barrier to entry for a lot of people. A lot of people are not willing to commit to playing monthly for a game. There are so many free to play online games these days. You also have to factor in console games like PS3 for example all their online is free. People have a lot of choice.

Cash shop items seem like a good way to go for profiting on your MMO.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Hell, go play Aion. That community has turned into a shithole pretty quickly.

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I hated the Aion community even before they went F2P. They were one of the most troll infested, vile, and immature communities I had ever experienced.

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Originally Posted by Fyres

GW2 is f2p and getting good reviews. just means a company will find a way to make the money in another way~

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this aint that game but i still love GW2, way different game too its FP2 after you buy it so money has to come from somewhere.
i rather just pay my $10 a month and that be the end of it.

average F2P player
http://walyou.com/wp-content/uploads...s-design-1.jpg

FFXIV being pay to play doesn't make it immune to, annoying people, trolls, disrespectful and other bad people. There are some unpleasant people in every online game. I mean there's people here who constantly make topics on how they don't like jump for example, which is really annoying.

You get what you pay for...

I'm yet to play a game that can match FF11 or FF14 in terms of depth and detail.

EDIT: Yet to play an MMORPG game...