Picto makes the game less fun

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Some free potency that could be nerfed on PCT could be like reducing the potency on Star Prism, and making it an oGCD.

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The real issue with picto are broken free to cast motifs. Picto doesnt care about downtime at all, trio happening - lol just prepare 1k potency muse and hammer, while other classes cant do this equivalent of "build combo/gauge".

Next patch with ultimate will show if devs even bother to play this game at all (because if FRU has a lot of downtime, it's a win for picto, meaning why bother shooting yourself in the foot with other casters).

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Originally Posted by Stasya

The real issue with picto are broken free to cast motifs. Picto doesnt care about downtime at all, trio happening - lol just prepare 1k potency muse and hammer, while other classes cant do this equivalent of "build combo/gauge".

Next patch with ultimate will show if devs even bother to play this game at all (because if FRU has a lot of downtime, it's a win for picto, meaning why bother shooting yourself in the foot with other casters).

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I don't know how much of the fun this would affect, but what could be done is he cast/recast time on motifs could be made the same as Subtractive GCDs, and the muse potencies could be brought in line with Subtractive GCDs as well -- like closer to 900's instead of the 1000's plus they are now.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Some free potency that could be nerfed on PCT could be like reducing the potency on Star Prism, and making it an oGCD.

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If you make anything an oGCD, we're speaking about nerfs in the divide the potency by huge ranges. A nuke GCD needs not only be a big potency, but also needs to make it worth over the average GCD potency, which tends to ramp up very high (and explains how some skills go so high those days in potency when in the past high potency GCDs were not really locked behind 60s or 120s buttons). If you move this to an OGCD, the order of magnitude in terms of potency has to be dialed down a lot because it's not competing with the average GCD anymore, else you'd see RDM Thorns to be way higher than just 600.

It would not solve the pre charged motifs at all. Perhaps the true issue with motifs is that attacks locked behind them are too potent, but if you reduce this you make it not worth using considering the time they take to cast and charge. And this goes back directly to the main issue I had with the job as soon as it was showcased in the media tour: there is literally zero link between the motifs and the base filler palette. It's a bit like tools with MCH, they don't really interact with the rest of the kit (some give battery, but battery isn't used on the GCD rotation), just that MCH can't reload tools during downtime (Imagine how crazy this would be? That's exactly what PCT does). A solution would be to reduce the potency of motifs, but at the same time making them linked and required for the rest of the rotation somehow, but I can't see how they'd do something like this without a relatively heavy rework.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It would not solve the pre charged motifs at all. Perhaps the true issue with motifs is that attacks locked behind them are too potent, but if you reduce this you make it not worth using considering the time they take to cast and charge. And this goes back directly to the main issue I had with the job as soon as it was showcased in the media tour: there is literally zero link between the motifs and the base filler palette. It's a bit like tools with MCH, they don't really interact with the rest of the kit (some give battery, but battery isn't used on the GCD rotation), just that MCH can't reload tools during downtime (Imagine how crazy this would be? That's exactly what PCT does). A solution would be to reduce the potency of motifs, but at the same time making them linked and required for the rest of the rotation somehow, but I can't see how they'd do something like this without a relatively heavy rework.

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think most likely, at this current point making a nerf of 100-150 potency for the living muses would make the most amount of sense while keeping mog/madeen at its relatively high potency so there is still a reason why you want to go for them despite the longer casts. there is no reason i can think would absolutely justify them being at 1100 potency as is. generally i think they need to go back though and rebalance all of the muse potency and the subtractive pallete/comet potency as a whole but as it stands given the class on average does about 2-3% more on current level content and about 5-8% more on level 80 and 90 ultimate raids.

PCT is one of the biggest challenge to balance team, and they can't escape it.

if they change the encounter design the job will be horrible, because this job is designed around 1 specific encounter design, do the encounter have downtime? yes? gg the job is broken.

I can't see how they keep the game balance after that specially for BLM as PCT can do both damage and utility + buffs and mobility. crazy right?

I don't know if any of the job team actually think before design PCT, that's the problem when you have no clear vision of how the game should function and keep listening for feedback without analyzing it.

I mean in the end Picto is just a more modern job. It's not inherently bad, quite the opposite. The flaw is that the rest of the jobs isn't updated to the same standard and the game's general combat hasn't evolved beyond "perform this ballet and this fixed rotation while you're doing it".

'Don't nerf PCT. Buff the other jobs into parity. PCT is just better designed.' I'm pretty sure that I've heard this type of rhetoric before. Where was that again? Ah right. WAR mains. Yeah, it wasn't a good look ten years ago, and still isn't now.

PCT isn't modern design. Years ago, SE realized that timer-gated burst that dumped all its potency on a few GCDs resulted in shallow gameplay and balance inequities. So they developed resource systems that required you to actually maintain uptime in order to burst. All they've achieved with this is a means for EW SMN mains to replace BLM players.

I'm surprised that Yoshi-p is allowing this to stand, if he's still playing.

Hrm, I should add that I don't mind lowering potency. That's just DPS numbers. That's not the same as the far more modern design, which is superior and other jobs should be modernized at some point, too.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm surprised that Yoshi-p is allowing this to stand, if he's still playing.

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He does, and he's playing Black Mage.

You speak of ballet dancing which has been the paradigm that the game has doubled down onto for years now (which I do agree with and absolute hate), yet you praise PCT as a "modern design". This modern design has been specifically tailored for that kind of DDR ballet gameplay, that's why the job performs so well as a caster in it. I'm not saying that the job's flow is bad though, the kit is interesting. But it's literally BLM without all the clunk when it comes to mobility.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You speak of ballet dancing which has been the paradigm that the game has doubled down onto for years now (which I do agree with and absolute hate), yet you praise PCT as a "modern design". This modern design has been specifically tailored for that kind of DDR ballet gameplay, that's why the job performs so well as a caster in it. I'm not saying that the job's flow is bad though, the kit is interesting. But it's literally BLM without all the clunk when it comes to mobility.

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PCT doesn’t fit the DDR design so much as it fits the “the only thing that matters is the burst” because PCT excels at using its “you don’t want to press this in the burst” buttons whenever it wants whereas other classes have to press them at specific times

Even if we had more WOW style random fights if the focus on the burst remains PCT will continue to be very strong because it excels at its burst design better than any other class, that’s what makes it more modern designed

Doesn't mean it doesn't fit the DDR model on mobility either. One doesn't prevent the other. I don't understand the point of your reply? I do not disagree with your view on the burst flexibility either. If anything, it actually helps the job on uptime flexibility indirectly which still feeds into the damage / uptime single axis we have been dealing with for a while now.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Doesn't mean it doesn't fit the DDR model on mobility either. One doesn't prevent the other. I don't understand the point of your reply? I do not disagree with your view on the burst flexibility either. If anything, it actually helps the job on uptime flexibility indirectly which still feeds into the damage / uptime single axis we have been dealing with for a while now.

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Because PCT’s design doesn’t uniquely work only because of DDR. You could shove PCT into WOW style endgame raids and it would still perform solidly (within reason of the design of 14’s classes)

Nothing in PCT’s design massively benefits from DDR style design over any of the other 7 casters PCT benefits from the unique way it builds its burst

It does better than BLM because BLM is a class designed for ARR but PCT’s design doesn’t really have noticeable benefits over RDM or the healers in the DDR design, it just can shove things around that aren’t needed. That’s more my point, I’m not sure why you think PCT uniquely benefits out of the casters for the DDR design

I'm still not sure why you keep bringing up WoW. Within XIV's current design, it works outstandingly well. It doesn't mean it wouldn't work in other environments.

RDM works well within that frame as well, yes. Never said the opposite?

I think the point is that PCT would be broken in pretty much any fight design, because of how it generates its burst. The vast majority of its damage output is generated off of a few button presses during burst, and it doesn't require uptime to earn that burst because of how the motifs work. You might as well have designed a job where the player shows up once every two minutes to press a button, and then goes back to making coffee.

I guess if you want to praise it as being 'modern', it's the final stage of evolution of the two minute meta. Uptime no longer matters, only burst separated out by dance routines.

Ranged jobs are feeling the impact of this the most because PCT has a guaranteed spot. But it sets a very bad precedent for all jobs.

I never said the job is in a good state right now either. I am not defending the job. I don't like that the job is bringing all of those problems but at the same time and it's going to sound petty but I like that it actually does, because it just goes to show the limits of the current XIV design and balance and perhaps something good is going to come out of it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm still not sure why you keep bringing up WoW. Within XIV's current design, it works outstandingly well. It doesn't mean it wouldn't work in other environments.

RDM works well within that frame as well, yes. Never said the opposite?

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Your original point was that PCT works exceptionally well as a caster within the DDR framework (ie as you said it’s BLM without the clunk). I’m trying to say there is functionally nothing about PCT’s design that uniquely benefits it in the DDR fight design. It’s power comes from how it interact with burst. DDR fight design neither helps nor hinders PCT

I find it extremely hard to believe the team is ever going to deviate away from the two minute meta. I suspect this is the reason there's a larger push to outright nerf it. The latter just seems more feasible. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

I haven't checked data recently, but if I had to guess I would bet that it shows that it's easier to get more dps with PCT than BLM. It was a few pages ago but I also agree that in this very same way, PCT basically trivializes already trivial feeling casual content to the point of absurdity. You can feel it, so the topic title is kinda true. PCT does, in a way, make the game actively less fun to play sometimes.