Combat system is beyond saving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Reducing the fun aspect for you maybe. I don't care about encounter mechanics that ask me to play DDR on repeat and pass body checks that I can't even help others through with my skills. I care however for intricate and fulfilling job designs, and the game currently fails spectacularly at this. Everything is extremely basic.

Note that I'm using intricate on purpose, not complex, because complexity for the sake of it is just intellectual wankery.

---

I'm afraid the game engine is too limited to design anything dramatically more intricate and complex. For example: there doesn't seem to be any channeled abilities other than... Flamethrower? There's no parry, dodge or reposition mechanics, there's no aiming, there's no rythm other than the dualweaving GCDs we got, there's no multiplayer abilities or spells (imagine two BLMs casting in tandem). There's a lot that can be done to make combat more interesting but is limited by an old engine, networking and outdated interface.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

The problem is that Encounter Design does has way less 'shelf life' than job design because of how XIV structure is:

- Focus on the encounters: They are complex and engaging until you get your clear and suddenly they are braindead as long as everyone is on the same page. What remains is a bunch of boring jobs to go through those reclears until you don't need to reclear them anymore. Add to the aggravation the small quantity of High End content you're offered every major patch.

- Focus on the jobs: They are complex and engaging, and at some point you master their mechanics, but you still need to be on your toes and be doing decision making constantly. Shelf life is bigger because you need to apply that to different encounters, which lead to different variables. This is exactly why today BLM is the job with the most shelf life imo.

In a ideal world you'd have a neat balance between the two of them, but if I could choose just one to be the 'complex one' would be Jobs, not encounters.

---

I agree, but without the aforementioned examples while keeping the game balanced and working it's going to be difficult to break the status quo on game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gokki

Yeah, that's encounter design problem, not combat system (they're closely linked of course). There are many variables in all of this and i feel it's more difficult than people realise.
It's just the devs designing encounters differently. I do agree that encounter design is stale because everything is in an arbitrary square or round platform and there's never any texture to it, like, why not design a fight on a train where the fight changes depending on which car we're on. A rudimentary version of this exists in the early Omega fights, but that is still basically a rectangle arena.

---

I just don’t buy the “it’s more difficult than people imagine it is” when we literally already have it………coils

If they could do it scraping the bottom of the barrel to not bankrupt the company after 1.0 I don’t really think “it’s too hard” is a valid excuse in this day and age

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gokki

A rudimentary version of this exists in the early Omega fights, but that is still basically a rectangle arena.

---

I made a thread somewhere in that same forum about how Phantom Train is the best designed raid encounter by far, not for its mechanics or buffs, but for the whole unique scenery, changing platforms and phases, it's actually trying to tell a whole story saga, and that's to wonder why every other boss ever is a static dummy on a platform with no rails... I don't have the answer to this to that day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gokki

I'm afraid the game engine is too limited to design anything dramatically more intricate and complex. For example: there doesn't seem to be any channeled abilities other than... Flamethrower? There's no parry, dodge or reposition mechanics, there's no aiming, there's no rythm other than the dualweaving GCDs we got, there's no multiplayer abilities or spells (imagine two BLMs casting in tandem). There's a lot that can be done to make combat more interesting but is limited by an old engine, networking and outdated interface.

---

I wouldn't mind having those, but if you have actually played before ShB, we had a lot of other facets to the game that have been axed, proper and simple. A lot of resource management, teamplay, etc. They had a lot more building blocks to build things upon, unlike today. They need to reintroduce things, whether it's inspired by what we had or your ideas.. This would help both in encounter design and job design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I made a thread somewhere in that same forum about how Phantom Train is the best designed raid encounter by far, not for its mechanics or buffs, but for the whole unique scenery, changing platforms and phases, it's actually trying to tell a whole story saga, and that's to wonder why every other boss ever is a static dummy on a platform with no rails... I don't have the answer to this to that day.



I wouldn't mind having those, but if you have actually played before ShB, we had a lot of other facets to the game that have been axed, proper and simple. A lot of resource management, teamplay, etc. They had a lot more building blocks to build things upon, unlike today. They need to reintroduce things, whether it's inspired by what we had or your ideas.. This would help both in encounter design and job design.

---

First coil is another example of a raid telling a story by locations

T3 is a joke but it does add a lot visually to how first coil feels like a single raid of a physical location split over 5 fights which I absolutely love

Time to quit and let others enjoy things.
Bye

Thank you for your productive contribution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tsuchii

Time to quit and let others enjoy things.
Bye

---

I’ll be sure to attend your departure party when the devs make a change you don’t like and you get told to kick rocks

I agree. HW combat is the best although I kinda liked the TP removal in Stormblood. I absolutely adore having to turn on Cleric Stance to do damage as a healer because it gives you a sense of risk and danger. Removing aggro management is absolutely non-excusable. Tanks should be able to decide whether they want to do more damage at the risk of losing aggro. That's the fun part of playing tanks and allow skill expression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

I agree. HW combat is the best although I kinda liked the TP removal in Stormblood. I absolutely adore having to turn on Cleric Stance to do damage as a healer because it gives you a sense of risk and danger. Removing aggro management is absolutely non-excusable. Tanks should be able to decide whether they want to do more damage at the risk of losing aggro. That's the fun part of playing tanks and allow skill expression.

---

Pardon me as I only start played FFXIV at the start of Shb, but judging from everyone review about HW's both job and raid design, it seems that HW is like reverse EW. EW has bad job design with okayish encounter, while HW has okayish job design with bad encounter.

A silly take, aye, but I for one is willing to learn more about job design in pre-Shb era.

I don't think HW had bad encounters at all. If anything it suffers from the stigma of A1 and A2 and their savage versions that were extremely underwhelming and essentially glorified dps checks. Rest of the alex raids are pretty great, they also still have more than just a boss to hit for each fight as well as a bigger care to their actual environment. Shadow of Mhach also suffered from a first tier that even YoshiP apologized for how much of a boredom it was, and then we got gems like Weeping City and Dun Scaith (bring back the the old gate boss and remove proto ultima or move it somewhere else please, the old one was hilarious and the casualties were great kthx).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zadood

Pardon me as I only start played FFXIV at the start of Shb, but judging from everyone review about HW's both job and raid design, it seems that HW is like reverse EW. EW has bad job design with okayish encounter, while HW has okayish job design with bad encounter.

A silly take, aye, but I for one is willing to learn more about job design in pre-Shb era.

---

Not really, Havensward had great encounters and the most complex, if often unnecessarily clunky and punishing, job design.
It does however still suffer from the stigma of it's first raid tier which was such a ramp up in difficulty from ARR's raids that it almost killed the raid scene.


If you even just look at the Alexander normal raids they are so varied in environment and fight design that it's almost depressing compared to nowadays where everything is just a circle in the void that makes you do some variation of exaflares, limit cut, dynamo, chariot, stack and spread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zadood

Pardon me as I only start played FFXIV at the start of Shb, but judging from everyone review about HW's both job and raid design, it seems that HW is like reverse EW. EW has bad job design with okayish encounter, while HW has okayish job design with bad encounter.

---

HW encounter design was fine for the most part, except certain encounters like A4S. They were still figuring out good raid design back then, moving from a WoW-like concept to scripted fights that involve brain-training. By the final tier of Alexander (Creator), it was pretty good tbh and I loved all of the fights.

Quote:

---

I for one is willing to learn more about job design in pre-Shb era.

---

I could try to explain it, but it would honestly be easier to just watch youtube videos from MrHappy's retro series or Heavensward generally. You could scroll to the bottom and watch all these videos from 8 years ago: Lost City, Antitower, Thordan, Sephirot, Sohm Al, Final Steps, Baelsar's Wall, Zurvan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Not really, Havensward had great encounters and the most complex, if often unnecessarily clunky and punishing, job design.

---

This is a good way to put it. Heavensward job design had you tracking lots of stuff, status effects, keeping stuff up, managing cooldowns, but there were no job gauges and it was full of jank, abilities that could be merged or designed better, useless abilities that nobody used, bloat (you think DRG has a lot of damage buffs now?), being careful not to interrupt combos, aiming to auto-attack, aiming to block, combos expiring if you didn't continue them within a few seconds, tiny healer bubbles and effect ranges, less off-GCDs (especially for healers), a cleric stance that meant healers couldn't heal while in DPS mode, odd design decisions like physical mitigation in fights that deal magic damage, RNG mitigation which is useless etc. Little things like this made it way harder and have more depth, but it seemed like it was all a shot in the dark from ARR release so a lot of it was janky or useless and got tinkered with or removed over time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think HW had bad encounters at all. If anything it suffers from the stigma of A1 and A2 and their savage versions that were extremely underwhelming

---

Actually, I took some sprouts through A1-A12 MINE once and the only one they wiped to was A1, which took like an hour or so to clear. The rest were one-shots. I've also always found the savage version of A1 fun. I think A2 is what I don't like, not because it doesn't have depth with the whole getting in a robot thing, but because being loads of adds just doesn't make me excited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

It does however still suffer from the stigma of it's first raid tier which was such a ramp up in difficulty from ARR's raids that it almost killed the raid scene.

---

Everyone says this but I think there were other factors as well. We didn't have cross-world Party Finder, so you had to be on a "raid server" to see anything in PF or somewhere active enough to find 7 people to raid with and often this would be a raid FC on a busy world. Your ability to get things done dramatically shifts when the number of people and parties available to you octuples. It was able to become less FC-centric.

Because I look at all this now and when we get hard fights that make people quit now we just endure because there is this massive pool of players that can mix from across worlds and now data centers, so the people who want to get it done, find other people who want to get it done, and do it.

Oh and we didn't have discord then! Having these big PUG raid discords and static finders is a factor too. Discord came about during Heavensward and it took a lot of time before we really had these sort of large discord servers we have now.

Quote:

---

If you even just look at the Alexander normal raids they are so varied in environment and fight design that it's almost depressing compared to nowadays where everything is just a circle in the void that makes you do some variation of exaflares, limit cut, dynamo, chariot, stack and spread.

---

A1, A2, A5, A8 and A9 are a square; A3, A4, A11 and A12 are a circle, A6 is a series of squares/circles, A7 is a square or circle depending on if you want to consider the spikes and A10 is unique. So out of all of them only A10 is unique. If we compare that to now, P10 is unique as well.

Can we entirely argue that P1S-P7S and P10S didn't use their environments with mechanics such as Pinax, sectioned off areas for certain mechanics in P3S and P5S, the 3 platforms in P7S, the unique platform in P10S and so on.

You mentioned about us just doing exaflares, limit cut, dynamo, chariot, stack or spread, so how about the element mechanic in P1S that also involved flexing, < shaped AoEs with pizza slice safe spots, hot/cold floor areas that sometimes a player decides which one explodes, snakes and HC in P8S, ruby's in P5S which involve narrow safe spots or watching what explodes, Devour?, I could honestly go on at this point. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zadood

Pardon me as I only start played FFXIV at the start of Shb, but judging from everyone review about HW's both job and raid design, it seems that HW is like reverse EW. EW has bad job design with okayish encounter, while HW has okayish job design with bad encounter.

A silly take, aye, but I for one is willing to learn more about job design in pre-Shb era.

---

If you’re willing, old content is still available for you to experience it. I completed Coils( including savage), Alexander savage and Omega savage multiple times in minimum item level no echo settings. I posted some screenshots here before. I still do them now.

It’s better for you to form your own opinion than take others’ claim for what it is. I personally think old raids aren’t that interesting as many people claimed. EW raids still have flaws, but I see lots of improvements over the years.

Problems is even with MINE, it's a different landscape now. Take WHM assize for example, back in HW, it was a 300 pot heal and dmg decided by whether you were in cleric stance or not on a 90 sec cd. Now there is no cleric stance, it does 400 heal and dmg on a 40 second cd. Asylum was only 6 yalms back then compared to today's 15. Etc etc

Edit: Also healing spells were generally weaker back then too with the exception of the fairy. Also accessories didn't not have vitality as they do now.

The presence of tank mastery alone basically ruins coils even on mine specifically because the tanks just don’t take anywhere near as much damage as they used to and don’t need anywhere near as much upkeep which frees the healers up to do way more than they did when content was current

It is also just way easier to cheese mechanics with the buffed potency than it used to be. It’s so easy to cheese allagen field these days with shields because you have more free mana to spam shields and the shield potency is higher. I remember in ShB I did a coils run of T7 and we were killing her so fast she desynced then we pushed her phases so fast she somehow managed to resync and we cleared her as normal. That 100% would have been a wipe when current

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xivYuiM

Half of the playerbase hasn’t even experienced the actual final fantasy XIV combat system that had things like:

• Aggro management
• Cleric stance and Multiple tank stances (3.x WAR was the best job in the history of this game)

---

No. Cleric Stance was the worst feature of combat. You were supposed to play based on the role you entered, not waste time switching.

What would have "fixed 2.0" would have required making all the jobs matter in the MSQ. Instead only DPS matters. So "Cleric Stance" and "Tank Stance" features were for for allowing healers and tanks to be able to play them during MSQ and not have to spend 10 times as much time wearing down monsters while stuck as a healer or tank. When you form a party, you should have been relegated to playing the role you joined the duty finder as, and all the buttons on your bar that deal with non-role functions would be ignored swapped to what you should be doing. Instead players berated non-DPS players for not DPS'ing during content and became an entire hostile thing that overflowed onto the forums, and third party forums, and people mocking players who wanted to play the class they picked, and ignoring the storyline saying otherwise.

Yoshi-P took this mockery to mean all players wanted to do was DPS, so everything got dumbed down to the point that healers had nothing to do once the mechanics were learned. Nice job breaking it guys. This is why we have so many solo instances.

Maybe make those solo instances allow party members to "role play" those other NPC's so we don't have to keep dropping from the party to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The presence of tank mastery alone basically ruins coils even on mine specifically because the tanks just don’t take anywhere near as much damage as they used to and don’t need anywhere near as much upkeep which frees the healers up to do way more than they did when content was current

It is also just way easier to cheese mechanics with the buffed potency than it used to be. It’s so easy to cheese allagen field these days with shields because you have more free mana to spam shields and the shield potency is higher. I remember in ShB I did a coils run of T7 and we were killing her so fast she desynced then we pushed her phases so fast she somehow managed to resync and we cleared her as normal. That 100% would have been a wipe when current

---

Minimum ilvl can't be trusted for old fights, the scaling is all off nowadays.

When I did Midas savage with some friends, we actually did it below minimum ilvl for better scaling, I think we did it in i110 gear for the closest experience.

I do think it's unfortunate that new players can't get the experience as it was back then anymore though. If only they had a mode that places you wholesale back into that expansion with kits, scaling and all. If they had the technology to do that, they could also preserve the challenge of old ultimates, my poor boy Golden Bahamut doesn't deserve to be treated like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aword3213

If you’re willing, old content is still available for you to experience it. I completed Coils( including savage), Alexander savage and Omega savage multiple times in minimum item level no echo settings. I posted some screenshots here before. I still do them now.

It’s better for you to form your own opinion than take others’ claim for what it is. I personally think old raids aren’t that interesting as many people claimed. EW raids still have flaws, but I see lots of improvements over the years.

---

the old raids were fine back then, because despite the clunkiness of the skills, we had a complete different skill set than what we have now for the most part back then, the highest ilvl at the time ilvl 120 keep in mind still, no high level food either and we had major mp managemennt, tp management, aggro management it was a totally different beast to what we had back in ARR and HW, even StB was vastly different. But StB i kind wish they kept with the combat direction because honestly to me it really felt like a majority classes had really strong identities and while it required some reading of the tool tips to uunderstand how the job played, it became even more fun once you mastered a job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rekh

An online rpg will come around and steal their thunder eventually though, just a matter of time.

---

That's is not going to happen, I afraid, especially If you know how much yearly revenue BDO has make compared to FFXIV, it's like comparing a boulder to a pebble.

If you are a corporate that want to develop a MMORPG to make money, would you invest a tons of money to develop a MMORPGs just overthrow FFXIV for it's dogwater yearly revenue?
Or invest a ton of money to develop a MMORPG that is good enough to compete with BDO in hope getting at least half of BDO yearly revenue?

One of the reason why SQEX is reluctant to increase CBU3's budget by a ton to develop a better FFXIV that could possibly overthrow WoW, because the amount of increased yearly revenue for dethrone WoW's spot for being No.1 MMORPG is never good enough to justify the cost and tremendous increased budget of FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The presence of tank mastery alone basically ruins coils even on mine specifically because the tanks just don’t take anywhere near as much damage as they used to

---

True, especially since we would often remove tank stance in raids to do more damage, since tank stance reduced all damage (both incoming and outgoing) similar to the adds in Thordan where you focus the one not in tank stance.

Quote:

---

don’t need anywhere near as much upkeep which frees the healers up to do way more than they did when content was current

---

Regardless, when I've done them MINE (which was before the stat squish) I was still frantically GCD healing like crazy due to the lack of OGCDs. I don't think the squish was meant to affect 50 content either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Minimum ilvl can't be trusted for old fights, the scaling is all off nowadays.

---

It isn't the same and nobody should think it's the same. But it's similar enough and usually still pretty challenging.

We've had potency increases and stat changes and abilities have been merged at lower levels making the combat less distracting, food doesn't sync properly, so sometimes DPS checks become a joke in certain fights. Often the mechanics, which were new at the time, were subsequently put into normal fights and duties (or done so in easier patterns) so you're more familiar with them than we were then.

But it's honestly satisfying enough and I'd respect MINE clears over all the people just unsyncing everything in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

No. Cleric Stance was the worst feature of combat. You were supposed to play based on the role you entered, not waste time switching.

---

I loved cleric stance just because it's a risk-reward thing but if you have a good feel for things, for timing and which risks are safe, it's never a problem.

Is this the same HW where certain jobs were completely useless in content?
Then some jobs were buffed to the point where you were griefing if you played anything else?
You couldn't clear content without extra gear and a certain comp.
NIN - DRG - BRD - MCH being the only comp anyone in PF allowed?

Lots of rose tinted glasses for HW, when in reality the job system was in the worst state it ever was.

3.x patch series was the worst period in this games history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

NIN - DRG - BRD - MCH being the only comp anyone in PF allowed?

---

Hmm, let me think. I remember seeing some SMN. I don't really remember MNK (legit never seen many MNK in any expansion). I saw BLM in statics. The rest of the DPS jobs literally didn't exist then, so saying it was restricted to NIN, DRG, BRD and MCH is like duh. We just didn't have many jobs then so SE was able to have them synergize.

I also didn't have trouble using PF as a PLD - people didn't really care about the tanks because they saw it as the DPS' job to do damage, and felt like any old tank can usually tank the boss, since they had no appreciation or respect for all the things tanks did back then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Is this the same HW where certain jobs were completely useless in content?
Then some jobs were buffed to the point where you were griefing if you played anything else?
You couldn't clear content without extra gear and a certain comp.
NIN - DRG - BRD - MCH being the only comp anyone in PF allowed?

Lots of rose tinted glasses for HW, when in reality the job system was in the worst state it ever was.

3.x patch series was the worst period in this games history.

---

I love how jobs that were not meta, but were absolutely viable and that were still used in harder content always gets described as being "completely useless" by accounts with join dates years after 2015-2017.

World First Brute Justice Clear btw: Love the NIN-DRG-BRD-MCH comp they're running...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I love how jobs that were not meta, but were absolutely viable and that were still used in harder content always gets described as being "completely useless" by accounts with join dates years after 2015-2017.

---

I don't really think forum join dates mean very much since it's tied to when you register for the forums, not when you started the game.

That said, the "rose-tinted glasses this, rose-tinted glasses that" argument is annoying. Have you people who use that argument ever considered that you have on the opposite of rose-tinted glasses? You hated HW so much that you amplified the flaws in your mind with your biases, so "NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH were great because of their synergy" filtered through your negative biases becomes "NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH was absolute meta and every other job was worthless and nobody wanted them".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

NIN - DRG - BRD - MCH being the only comp anyone in PF allowed?

---

Definitely didn't experience that at all. Or do you mean Stormblood's expansion where they had the blunt/piercing/striking debuffs tacked onto different classes that pretty much locked those spots (for meta chasers, at least) ?

Cross world pf didn't exist at the time, smaller population and it was harder to get people in groups on PF for them to be so picky. You'd be more likely to run into more people that would block/kick the 'imposter' player for faking fight knowledge and constantly failing all of the mechanics, and most people got gated by mechanics anyway in pf - at least on Cerberus server, A11s was a giant wall by the end of the tier.

Anyway - OP is right, combat will not regain the things it has lost which makes everything very reliant on the success of encounters - if encounters end up being boring, well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really think forum join dates mean very much since it's tied to when you register for the forums, not when you started the game.

That said, the "rose-tinted glasses this, rose-tinted glasses that" argument is annoying. Have you people who use that argument ever considered that you have on the opposite of rose-tinted glasses? You hated HW so much that you amplified the flaws in your mind with your biases, so "NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH were great because of their synergy" filtered through your negative biases becomes "NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH was absolute meta and every other job was worthless and nobody wanted them".

---

That’s true, it’s just an odd trend I’ve noticed where the ones who talk about how “terrible” the balance of HW or SB were seem to only be people with later join dates. Clearly, whatever HW hatred some people have now wasn’t prominent enough at the time to justify sharing their own feedback about it back then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

Cross world pf didn't exist at the time, smaller population and it was harder to get people in groups on PF for them to be so picky.

---

That's a good point as well. We did get cross-world PF at the tail-end of the expansion, but for even the initial 4 months of creator it was just your own world's PF.

Quote:

---

You'd be more likely to run into more people that would block/kick the 'imposter' player for faking fight knowledge and constantly failing all of the mechanics

---

This is why the jobs are being made easier haha. We ran into SMN that didn't know their rotation in a way that meant they wouldn't be doing much damage. Healers that just couldn't heal raid-wides even in A11S.

Mechanically, I got beyond steamroller pretty quick in A10S and made post-steamroller parties... but nobody that joined was actually post-steamroller (the same issue you get today in savage basically).

The smaller population in PF meant that after the initial few weeks of savage release, you were effectively a static - a lot like people say ultimates are now. The amount of people became so thin that you were genuinely just progging with the same people in PF always, so cross-world PF was a welcome variety.

Quote:

---

A11s was a giant wall by the end of the tier.

---

My experience is that it was a wall when progging (variously due to poor healing, not being able to do limit cut, OTs not being able to handle add, etc). But reclear parties were actually pretty smooth for me.

Quote:

---

Anyway - OP is right, combat will not regain the things it has lost which makes everything very reliant on the success of encounters - if encounters end up being boring, well...

---

Agreed and I don't necessarily think everything should be how it was (obviously I gave the SMN and healer examples which were frustrating to deal with), but we really do need the basic trinity to function ie. warrior not just being able to heal without healers. I say that as a tank main! It's not easy as a tank main to say "take stuff away", but when you just literally don't even need the rest of your party in a dungeon it's ridiculous. Auto attacks used to be far more threatening on bosses without the constant boss casting and self heals as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

whatever HW hatred some people have now wasn’t prominent enough at the time to justify sharing their own feedback about it back then.

---

Ok, so I agree the job balance thing wasn't an issue in PF, but people definitely shared their feedback at the time about numerous issues like Accuracy, RNG parry mitigation, cross-class actions needing to be role actions, useless actions, physical mit, which SE listened to completely since it all changed in SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Agreed and I don't necessarily think everything should be how it was (obviously I gave the SMN and healer examples which were frustrating to deal with), but we really do need the basic trinity to function ie. warrior not just being able to heal without healers. I say that as a tank main! It's not easy as a tank main to say "take stuff away", but when you just literally don't even need the rest of your party in a dungeon it's ridiculous. Auto attacks used to be far more threatening on bosses without the constant boss casting and self heals as well.
Ok, so I agree the job balance thing wasn't an issue in PF, but people definitely shared their feedback at the time about numerous issues like Accuracy, RNG parry mitigation, cross-class actions needing to be role actions, useless actions, physical mit, which SE listened to completely since it all changed in SB.

---

I was more specifically referring to this talk about how every DPS was unplayable in all forms of content except for the golden 4 or something similar to that note. Yes there was balance feedback, but it was not the feedback we see here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I was more specifically referring to this talk about how every DPS was unplayable in all forms of content except for the golden 4 or something similar to that note. Yes there was balance feedback, but it was not the feedback we see here

---

Yes, this job meta stuff is strange to me. It's actually been strange when I've seen these comments in other expansions as well, because if you just ignored the "meta" and joined any old PF then most people didn't even care. The ones that do are just in their own bubble joining eachother's parties/statics.

It’s ironic because “meta slave” pts that try to before the “meta comp” are historically bad groups relative to other groups. Meanwhile, the best of the best raiders understood the meta but also understood the value of playing to your teams strengths and weaknesses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It’s ironic because “meta slave” pts that try to before the “meta comp” are historically bad groups relative to other groups. Meanwhile, the best of the best raiders understood the meta but also understood the value of playing to your teams strengths and weaknesses.

---

It's because players who were bad back then could not utilise the jobs to their fullest potential, playing a meta NIN at 30% output was a massive detriment compared to playing an off-meta MNK at 70% output.

What the dev team is doing now isn't going to kill off any meta, it's going to end up solidifying the meta even harder. Because it's so easy to pick up and get good at any job in the current game, people can easily just lock in meta comps and always get players. It's going to become even harder to join parties as an off-meta job as they continue making jobs easier to hit peak performance on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That’s true, it’s just an odd trend I’ve noticed where the ones who talk about how “terrible” the balance of HW or SB were seem to only be people with later join dates. Clearly, whatever HW hatred some people have now wasn’t prominent enough at the time to justify sharing their own feedback about it back then.

---

I first decided to register on those forum in 2018 to ask SE to do something about MCH latency problems during late SB, but I've been playing since 2015.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's because players who were bad back then could not utilise the jobs to their fullest potential, playing a meta NIN at 30% output was a massive detriment compared to playing an off-meta MNK at 70% output.

What the dev team is doing now isn't going to kill off any meta, it's going to end up solidifying the meta even harder. Because it's so easy to pick up and get good at any job in the current game, people can easily just lock in meta comps and always get players. It's going to become even harder to join parties as an off-meta job as they continue making jobs easier to hit peak performance on.

---

In my opinion it's more a problem of a damage meta slowly shifting toward an effort based meta, since most damage discrepancies are being softened (which isn't a bad thing mind you) while they bring more and more braindead jobs like SMN and DNC that account for more than half of the raiding playerbase of their respective subroles.

I wonder what happened to 1.0 when development of the game was beyond redemption?

Maybe we need another Dalamud-levels of calamity... though who will be the next Lousioix to fulfill the role?? Alphinaud, perhaps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

All I was disputing was their claim that stance dancing was optional. It very much was not because of exactly what you said. People didn't like healers who could handle their role effortlessly and pushed them to dps, which we could only do effectively under cleric stance. .

---

If you're not trying to contribute damage then you're NOT "handling your time effectively," because you should always be casting and doing DPS when there isn't enough incoming damage to justify healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

I wonder what happened to 1.0 when development of the game was beyond redemption?

Maybe we need another Dalamud-levels of calamity... though who will be the next Lousioix to fulfill the role?? Alphinaud, perhaps?

---

Unlikely to ever happen.
1.0 was basically an unproven entry into the FF franchise and the MMO market which is why it's terrible design resulted in such a dramatic drop in players.
XIV now however is an established title with a reputation for being actually very good, even if we disagree with that general perception nowadays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Unlikely to ever happen.
1.0 was basically an unproven entry into the FF franchise and the MMO market which is why it's terrible design resulted in such a dramatic drop in players.

---

Final Fantasy XI says hello.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menriq

Final Fantasy XI says hello.

---

XI was already a long-running MMO at that point, yes. But all that told you was that SE could make successful MMO, not that XIV was guaranteed to be one, especially since the genre had shifted drastically since 2002.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

especially since the genre had shifted drastically since 2002.

---

How so?

10 characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rekh

How so?

10 characters.

---

Because after the release and massive success of World of Warcraft in 2004 it became the new gold standard for what an MMO should be, and the slow-paced grind heavy style of Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and XI had been on it's way out for a long time by 2010.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because after the release and massive success of World of Warcraft in 2004 it became the new gold standard for what an MMO should be, and the slow-paced grind heavy style of Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and XI had been on it's way out for a long time by 2010.

---

Well, you won't find me calling BG3 an mmorpg but it does prove that that kind of gameplay and game design is still very much revelant.
The issue is no major or even minor mmorpg has tried to replicate it as an mmorpg unfortunately.

Game designers have this belief that people don't have patience for more tactical gameplay; again BG3 proved them wrong.