Are there any plans to fix the 'Haurchefant' localization?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

That's all very well, but SE is a multidollar for-profit company and artistic integrity is not going to carry as much weight as more money, particularly after the utter disaster that was the first attempt at the game. 2.0 had to appeal to people and generate revenue or SE was going to go under.

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And that's my point - they don't need to do that. This type of approach to foreign media adaptation only serves to divide the foreign market. I guarantee you people wouldn't stop playing if it were problematic.

They could just as easily, in the next patch, roll out a fifth Language option in the launcher that alters the English text to be in-line with the Japanese text, including fixing cutscenes and the like, and it would be praised by the fans. I think that would be the best approach to this, since it would allow them to unify their script going forward while also allowing those who are happy to play with their localized content while those who want a more 'truthful' and 'faithful' experience can have that.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I've never seen someone so openly proud about being arrogant on this forum.

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There's a difference between being arrogant and being confident in one's assertions or principles. I originally made this thread expecting some level of decorum, but the gloves came off after people tried to unironically moralize insecurity and draw a link between sexual harassment on trains and the content of a video game. That's literal Karen rhetoric which nobody should have any respect for, where anything and everything can be eroded or censored by invoking a normalcy bias fallacy to fool people into believing that there's an effect, when objectively there's not.

I've never seen fans of JP media actually praise what are egregious and repugnant acts of censorship. Even if you prefer the Haurchefant localization over the canonical one, you have to admit that it ultimately shouldn't exist, at least not in this form.

As I said earlier, if it were the same across all platforms, that wouldn't really matter to me, because at that point, it would have been a conscious decision on the writers to alter it, and not members of the LOC team going rogue and muddying up everything for the sake of not offending an outspoken minority who only care about seeing their insecurities placated.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

it's not a small part of the community. It's a rather large part, but colonialism and braindead Western sentiments tend to present the illusion that they're a minority. My point is that it genuinely ruins the vision, and the fact that people respond with sheer hostility at this shows that there's something obscenely disingenuous about their position. Do they not like being exposed to the truth? That Koji Fox's jokes and reference replacements really aren't that good? That the Japanese version actually is better and they want to sequester themselves to a delusion that everything is fine, so they just conform to it until artistic integrity becomes an afterthought?

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Thanks for the giggles bro, you almost got me thinking this was a serious post till I saw the colonialism part.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

It seems the characterization of the japanese Haurchefant is more that of the friend that tries to flirt with the WoL at any chance, contrary to the Western characterization that is that of the big brother that helps and cares for the WoL.
For the best or for the worst the localization team did this change to appeal more to western audiences, and just thinking on change it back by now is just silliness.

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I play the game in Japanese -- but to me I didn't feel Haurchefant was creepy or anything. He seemed like an extreme health / body-building enthusiast who just found the WoLs body as the best specimen available in the world. Every scene with him was really funny because of all the details he would point out how the WoL's body is super-awesome. None of his comments felt suggestive to me and only indicated that he was utterly crazy about having toned muscles, etc.

As someone who has done a bit of localization professionally, I don't think there is any "correct" way to do the job. However, personally I don't like to change the narrative due to the translator's own potential bias or "misunderstanding" of the original language which can happen if the translator is not bilingual / bi-cultural. My opinion isn't that important however because SE pays for the localization and it is clear that Yoshida likes Koji's translation (although I am not sure how he can judge the quality accurately with his language ability -- a continuous struggle for translators because your client would rarely 100% understand the quality of your output).

The issue then is why is Haurchefant's dialogue basically the same as the Japanese version in the German & French version (or so I have heard).

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Originally Posted by Telkira

If Mr. Crow hadn't made that post formally apologizing for it all and acknowledging the mistakes they had made, I probably wouldn't have opted to renew my sub, and would have taken my money elsewhere.

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It’s a real shame that he did apologize, then.

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

I play the game in Japanese -- but to me I didn't feel Haurchefant was creepy or anything. He seemed like an extreme health / body-building enthusiast who just found the WoLs body as the best specimen available in the world. Every scene with him was really funny because of all the details he would point out how the WoL's body is super-awesome. None of his comments felt suggestive to me and only indicated that he was utterly crazy about having toned muscles, etc.

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See, funnily enough, that's sort of adjacent to the impression I get from the Hildebrand oiling scenes. Yet, even knowing that, I find them distasteful and uncomfortable nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

See, funnily enough, that's sort of adjacent to the impression I get from the Hildebrand oiling scenes. Yet, even knowing that, I find them distasteful and uncomfortable nonetheless.

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Urgh. One of the particular reasons I hate doing the Hildibrand quests. You can't even excuse yourself out of it by skipping cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Thanks for the giggles bro, you almost got me thinking this was a serious post till I saw the colonialism part.

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In the sense that you're overriding the cultural sentiments of a foreign product because they may offend that of your native one, yes it can be reasonably construed as that. The fact that so many localizers genuinely view themselves as arbiters, rather than translators.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

In the sense that you're overriding the cultural sentiments of a foreign product because they may offend that of your native one, yes it can be reasonably construed as that. The fact that so many localizers genuinely view themselves as arbiters, rather than translators.

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No they see themselves as localizers rather than translators. Because that's what they are. They arent hired to be translators, they're hired to be localizers.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

No they see themselves as localizers rather than translators. Because that's what they are. They arent hired to be translators, they're hired to be localizers.

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With regard to SE's approach to localization, it's 75% translation with 25% localization.

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

I play the game in Japanese -- but to me I didn't feel Haurchefant was creepy or anything. He seemed like an extreme health / body-building enthusiast who just found the WoLs body as the best specimen available in the world. Every scene with him was really funny because of all the details he would point out how the WoL's body is super-awesome. None of his comments felt suggestive to me and only indicated that he was utterly crazy about having toned muscles, etc.

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What would a Lalafell think about him waxing on about their non-existent body tone? Well, you're a lala, so didn't it seem like only an excuse to stare and drool?

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

What would a Lalafell think about him waxing on about their non-existent body tone? Well, you're a lala, so didn't it seem like only an excuse to stare and drool?

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Momodi, the proprietess of the bar in Ul'Dah, doesn't seem to mind being lusted after by tall boys~

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

What would a Lalafell think about him waxing on about their non-existent body tone? Well, you're a lala, so didn't it seem like only an excuse to stare and drool?

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I wasn't playing with this character back then (this character hasn't even cleared ARR). Actually, I don't play with this character at all anymore. Back then I was playing as a bald male highlander.

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

I wasn't playing with this character back then (this character hasn't even cleared ARR). Actually, I don't play with this character at all anymore. Back then I was playing as a bald male highlander.

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Too bad. I guess we'll never know how off-putting the obvious lies would be then.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Momodi, the proprietess of the bar in Ul'Dah, doesn't seem to mind being lusted after by tall boys~

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Yeah... except she minds so much she loses her cool with that one guy who just refuses to take the hint in the post moogle quest. Just like JP weirdo haurchefant. Although i imagine you're not allowed to tell him to piss off like Momodi does to that sucker slow on the uptake.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Yeah... except she minds so much she looses her cool with that one guy who just refuses to take the hint in the post moogle quest. Just like JP weirdo haurchefant. Although i imagine you're not allowed to tell him to piss off, unlike Momodi does.

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She's a former courtesan (prostitute) and jokes about men's genitalia and intimate encounters.

Haven't had the brain power to respond properly to this but I saw your comment that I had literal Karen behaviour with my chikan mentions so I'll clarify all your points here:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

What does any of that have to do with depictions of fiction for the sake of comedy? Murder, assault, etc. are also just as illegal yet are shown in media all the same. You're seriously trying to draw parallels between real-life and fantasy/fictional depictions in fallacious and unworkable ways, a common talking point employed by proponents of censorship/suppression of 'problematic' elements in fiction. If that type of critique comes off as critiquing 'woke' approaches, it's not. I've never even commentated on 'wokeness' in JP-EN translations of things, but it's a genuine problem when anyone tries to inject politics into the adaptation of foreign media. Such things are NOT faithful to the original product and such revisions should be and are rightfully scorned at.

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Because, as I and many people already said, IT MAKES PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE. The fact that the numbers are going up in Japan means that people now are pulling back on these kinds of tropes because it makes real people uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

In any cas iet feels to me like you're responding to an argument that I never made by invoking media effects on Japanese culture and humor. These types of tropes and depictions in media are not to blame for incidents of assault or violations of privacy - people know the difference between right and wrong and how to appropriately contexualize these things from one another. It also feels like you're painting Japanese culture as largely insensitive, when in reality these types of social issues you're bringing are symptomatic of a larger set of problems far beyond the scope of this discussion.

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Plenty of people don't know those lines. Sure, you might, and I might, but others do not. They see this sort of trope and feel like "oh, I can do it too." Heck, it's even in an episode of 90s Sailor Moon with the Shin-chan reference! Yeah, it's a kid, but sometimes, they don't grow out of it or learn that no, that sort of thing isn't okay. It's the same with video games - a whole thing happened back in the early aughts with Jack Whatshisname going VIDEO GAMES MAKE KIDS VIOLENT etc., and while it was proven that no, it's not just the vidya but a multitude of factors, other media factors into it. No, it may not be everyone, but seeing that behaviour be gotten away with in media does, in fact, embolden some to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

As for cultural differences and media effects, I think there's a very clear difference between a fictional comedy trope seen in media vs. a real-life example of a sexual predator or incidents of real-world sexual assault. I don't think most people in Japan would take issue with this, and more and more people have begun to speak out and make corrections where they matter. One is a harmless joke in a video game and is received that way by their larger public, while the other is a real-life crime. That's the crux of my "me not getting why people are upset" statements, because once you learn to differentiate between the two, things genuinely are much better.

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You know that sexual predators aren't always creeping in the shadows, right? They're not just some weirdo in an alley waiting to strike. They're in the bar or club or other hangout place, all smiles, occasional strange comment that's not completely out of place in a conversation but still something feels off when all of a sudden they're talking about how nice your arse looks in those jeans, where'd you get them? A "harmless joke" in anime or a video game is not so harmless to those that have had the same happen to them. I'm very glad you haven't seemed to have had this happen to you, but others have. Not reliving something like this isn't something you'd expect in a video game anyway.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

That doesn't necessarily mean that the divorce from reality and fiction is less pervasive, as you think it does. I know people who were also victimized by this and they're neutral to it, as are the broader Japanese public as previously stated, otherwise these tropes wouldn't be as entertaining.

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Sometimes, the neutrality is a coping mechanism. Sometimes it isn't, no, and the person isn't really bothered by it or it was just another day in being catcalled, but others aren't like that. Not everyone is the same in how they deal with this. A lot of times it's "yeah haha I'm fine" but no, they just don't want to be mocked or "oh it wasn't THAT bad"... which is why reporting rates are so low. :)

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Originally Posted by Telkira

As stated before, people can and do engage with such material irrespective of what happened to them in real-life. You keep overstating the discomfort associated with Haurchefant's JP characterization, when it's very clear to anyone who'd seen it that it's really minimal, or a non-issue to veteran consumers of Japanese content. I genuinely don't see why it should matter anyway since it's a joke. People shouldn't have their insecurities pandered to and sated because that only tells them that they're right for being offended, when such things shouldn't matter at all.

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In most comments I've seen on the people saying "No thanks" it's not offense, it's something that is UNCOMFORTABLE. Something that has happened to them that made them feel unsafe. I'm not overstating it when something that is harmless to you is a moment of "oh, this makes me think of a real bad time" to someone else. That is more than enough justification to not have it in the localization.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I use LINE sometimes... and it was to illustrate how the character is depicted in external media. If they were to license depictions of the character for external use (such as merchandising or spin-off media) it's highly unlikely that they'd localize even that just to keep it consistent with the inconsistent characterization situation (further illustrating why it was a mistake).

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He's still got enough "yeah I'd do something to the WoL if they let me" in the localization, it wouldn't be out of place in regular messaging apps for the character.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I wasn't talking about that.
It was the debacle with Funimation (who is now merged with Crunchyroll), my mistake. They changed whole parts of a character's dialog to make certain depictions seem political when, in the original script, they weren't. The Dragon Maid fiasco was a mini-culture war, in a way.

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If you're talking about the very unclear if gay to "I'm pretty het" in the dub, the scriptwriter mentioned why she made the change (in this case, "That "I'm a girl" could be construed as implying there's something wrong with being a lesbian." when it isn't from one of the sources I found talking about it), but afaik was more careful in the future and, from all I really found was one angry YouTube video and an actual discussion where people were going "eh" over it, and some now-deleted tweets about it. If it's not that, you're going to have to just outright tell me because the only other thing I found isn't a translation thing at all and more "very childish character with huge bazongas that people were going the kinda pedo angle with".

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I mean.. that's fine, lots of artists do that, but it's still ultimately a Japanese product. The environment artists behind Fallout New Vegas also traveled around the real-life Mojave desert on a motorbike, taking pictures and recording ambient audio, in addition to researching old Las Vegas history and lore, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a modern-American's take on Americana.
Lunar New Year isn't the only one, in fact I'd hardly consider it Japanese, it's far too generalized. But SE also celebrates Tanabata in FFXIV, also known as the 'Star Festival', which is a summertime holiday that originates from a festivity in Chinese mythology where the convergence of two gods is represented by stars and is commemorated with wishes.

They've also done collabs with NiER Automata (literally, who hasn't) and Yo-Kai Watch. There are probably a few others, but they're JP properties nonetheless.

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I know what Tanabata is, it's not solely a Japanese holiday either - you mentioned it yourself, that it was borrowed from China, something that Japan does. Their version of Christmas is the heavily Western version, as is Valentine's Day, borrowing it from the west. The only thing that their Christmas has over ours is their love of KFC on Christmas. As it stands, the Summer event has never been in line with Tanabata - if it was, it'd be in July, not August, and it's a pretty general holiday. The XI version of the Summer event, as I mentioned, was more traditionally Japanese and has more of that feel over XIV's version (I can admit I prefer the XI Summer music over the XIV Summer music though, I always play it while doing the quests lol).

Nier isn't exactly overly Japanese either, Yo-kai Watch and Garo you may have an argument for since they take place in Japan, but Yo-kai is more AU Japan with things that are obviously Japanese beyond pocketwatch monsters from Japanese folklore. Nier is Tokyo... but nothing of the actual culture remains except some parking tickets and the androids don't know what to do with them - they aren't Japanese. The terrain has changed from when it was Japan to where the game actually takes place.

Again, just because a game originates from a place does not mean they keep every aspect of their culture in their games. They don't. fwiw I live in NV and can take a drive south for a couple of hours to see things they used for New Vegas. Some of it is false. Some of it is mostly right. Some of it is exaggerated, and other things are changed for the sake of a game, but comparing a game that is supposed to take place in an alternate universe version of the giant desert in my state to a game that doesn't take place on this world at all to try to shoehorn in "but CULTURE" is silly. Ishgard is Medieval France, it's pretty obvious what Radz-at-Han is supposed to be (India and India-adjacent cultures), and so on and so forth. I would not expect some surprise "haha it's a game made in Japan" culture shock moment in areas that are not Doma and Kugane, and to an extent, Yanxia/Nagxia because those are not those locales either.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Well, literally the only points that aren't baseless insults and assumptions about my character is "it's offensive to us!" and "we prefer the changes!" which aren't really valid responses. It's fine to have preferences, but you should have the intellectual discipline to concede that the changes should have never happened. It requires a respect for, and understanding of artistic and literary integrity, which the localization approach towards the adaptation of foreign media is egregiously and disgustingly prone to. We shouldn't want any media, let alone foreign media, to only exist to regurgitate and not discomfort. These are not tranquilizers, they're video games and forms of art.

SE's approach is 100% a business one, one that I take serious issue with, despite understanding.

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They are valid responses. "I don't like it" is a response. I don't think namecalling or disrespect is necessary on either side, but saying "my view is the ONLY one that is valid" is an easy way for people to start wanting to clown on you. I don't have to concede anything beyond "it's a thing that happened that they've said they'll be better about in the future to make sure all localizations are what the JP version is, while the JP side will change things based on what they discuss," which they have done. As I already said prior, the EN's roundabout way of explaining things that makes it more complicated when it's NOT that complicated in JP/FR/DE is a frustration point for me and overuse of some words (STOP USING APLOMB I SWEAR TO GOD USE A THESAURUS) is my only true bugaboo with the localization. A misstep that happened nearly a decade ago is not worth my energy to care about when they've already made sure to not make the same misstep.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I disagree with it being 'forced' on you, and I also don't get this "proxy" analogy you're making. Your character isn't supposed to be an avatar of yourself or a virtualized projection of yourself in a digital world. It can be, but ultimately it's not, especially within these narrative contexts.
The fact that your character reacts with discomfort to it all makes it very apparent that it's a comedic trope, and not to be taken seriously.
I'm genuinely beginning to suspect that people recoil like terrified vipers at this because they believe it's fashionable to feel this way, and not just take it for what it is.

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While this reply isn't to me, you asked before why people weren't debating you properly or whatnot, so.

A lot of people see their avatar as an extension of themselves. I don't, since my characters are their own thing (roleplayer ftr) but not everyone does that. Plenty of people make their characters look like them or what they would perhaps like to be (who doesn't want to be a catgirl in Catgirls Online!) so yes, some people do see it that way. YOU may not, but someone else DOES.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

In any case, I see so many posts in this thread claiming that the JP characterization was bad or worse than the localization, or that it would have killed the character for them when he inevitably dies. I'm sorry, but if this is genuinely how you feel, then that says more about you than it does about the character that SE created. It says you're uncomfortable. It says you're distraught. Fine. But your discomfort isn't worth sacrificing the integrity of the product, or if it is, then that respect should be shared across all versions of the game, including the Japanese translation.

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When more and more people are saying "this makes me feel uncomfortable/makes me remember when this sort of thing happened and made me feel unsafe", it is. As I mentioned, if the same things were in place that are now for their localization process, they likely would have changed the lines wholesale even in JP/FR/DE.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Also, they apologized because they agreed that it was genuinely the wrong move for them to take, going so far as to acknowledge that they deprived the audience of a memorable character. It was a departure from their own processes, in addition to a change they would not have made, had they had the foresight to see how this would go down.

I also don't know where you get this delusion that it's a 'vocal minority' of players who voiced their concerns over this, because they're not a vocal minority. It was an uproar, with many fans posting about it in the forums from EN, GER, and FR languages because their experience was deliberately censored. They wouldn't have apologized for this if a mistake hadn't been made, and no amount of assumptions will change that fact. It was viewed as an abuse of discretion by the translators, and rightfully so.

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The forums are not a majority of the players of this game, either. The forums are a fairly small set of players compared to other social media.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Localization, in my view, is a fool's errand unless you plan on an all-out reconstruction of the content in question, not unlike the American pilot for Sailor Moon,

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You can pry the old DiC dub from my cold, dead hands. Not a fan of the Cloverway dub for S (SuperS was okay, but cousins in S), but the old DiC dub? Love it.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

which served as a proof-of-concept of how localization and adaptation of foreign media could be done. Why? Because ultimately, no matter how much you try to adapt it, it's still going to be foreign to Western audiences by virtue of its inception. It's distinctly Japanese and carries with it all the nuances and artistic/literary intricacies which surround it, which goes hand-in-hand as to why it's largely unnecessary. You and others like you would have overlooked the Haurchefant issues, or wouldn't have been phased or bothered by it had it released translated, and not censored. You would have consumed it and shrugged it off. It's not like he was a dealbreaker between you being able to enjoy the game and its story.

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And while we're on that subject, do you know how many people recoiled at the thought of the old Saban Moon, back in the day? I do. I was on those mailing lists, and it was any and all fans who knew exactly what the JP Sailor Moon was, and that the Saban Moon was a pretty big bastardization of it to sell toys, no one liked it - and that's why only the pilot exists. The Moon Cycle toy that the dolls got was a leftover from the Saban Moon pilot idea, and was never a thing in the manga or show. I can look at it now with at least some interest and "oh my god this is so very 90s" but did they not do the same with Netflix Death Note? Pretty sure that was widely panned as hot garbage.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

We should accept that Japanese media may be 'problematic' in these ways and enjoy it for what it is just like they do, because to them, it's not problematic. It's comedy. It's entertainment. I've said it before, but localization of this type really does erode a real chance at cultural understanding. The fact that people are even debating this with me shows that they're more concerned about their own preferences rather than retaining artistic and literary integrity, which matters far more than they'd care to ever realize.

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"Comedy" implies it is funny to everyone, or nearly everyone. It's not funny to people who have been harassed like that. There's probably some who don't care, that's fine, but plenty have said "it's not funny to me". I can enjoy Japanese culture and anime without someone constantly going "haha boobies" because that gets old. It got old in 7DS with Meliodas, it got old with Master Roshi. It's honestly a trope that can fade out.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Matters of preference are not truth. My opinion just happens to have more weight than those who would disagree.

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And if you're still wondering why people don't want to debate with you, this is your answer. "I don't care about your reasoning despite asking why, I'm right and you're wrong." is not asking for a debate, it's challenging people to try and change your mind when you've already dug in your heels and put your fingers in your ears to drown it out. the entirety of the quote I don't even need to say anything to, since it's the very tired "JP subs are superior" argument I've heard for decades now. Using "you people" as an insult won't get you anyone wanting to debate with you either.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

There's a difference between being arrogant and being confident in one's assertions or principles. I originally made this thread expecting some level of decorum, but the gloves came off after people tried to unironically moralize insecurity and draw a link between sexual harassment on trains and the content of a video game. That's literal Karen rhetoric which nobody should have any respect for, where anything and everything can be eroded or censored by invoking a normalcy bias fallacy to fool people into believing that there's an effect, when objectively there's not.

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I have been polite to you, and since this long, goddamn college paper post that I've written came from this particular comment, I'll complete my full thought here:

If my pulling stats and going "hm, maybe a real world thing that can bring irl harm to people being in a game is kinda bad" was such a slight to you, then don't ask for people to actually debate you. If you won't respect my own thoughts, and the thoughts of others on the subject, then no, you don't deserve a debate. You need to grow up and realize that your worldview is not the only one, and perhaps you should be more conscious of others' worldviews, what they have been through, and what may or may not be a discomfort big enough that yes, they would have dropped something. I don't find the scene linked to be that bad, no, and I found the "BE MY STEED" line funny in 2014's Heavensturn. But constantly throughout msq would have gotten old, as it does for me after it's been played out relentlessly because they're just a 1-dimensional character that goes "haha boobies" for juvenile laughs. Regardless, I'm no longer involved in this conversation. I already spent an hour and a half longer than I should have writing this and missed my work window.

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

The issue then is why is Haurchefant's dialogue basically the same as the Japanese version in the German & French version (or so I have heard).

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Yes this is something I've yet to see answered. All those claims about "Western sensibilities" (which only ever mean NA sensibilities apparently) and how it was the only way but there wasn't any controversy over French and German Harchefant. Who I also interpreted as a muscle obsessed weirdo rather than an outright sexual predator. French and German localization also work closely with Square Enix and are part of the dev team, yet they had no issue staying faithful to his original portrayal. Why indeed?
We have many people who make hypothesis on how they'd react to original Haurchefant, but those who actually experienced that version of the character first (which is my case and many other people I personally know) tell a very different story.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Because, as I and many people already said, IT MAKES PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE. The fact that the numbers are going up in Japan means that people now are pulling back on these kinds of tropes because it makes real people uncomfortable.

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But that's not true.

The tropes aren't being 'pulled back' on and are still used in anime, manga, and other forms of entertainment. They're funny. People like them, they amuse and will continue to be employed just as they always have been. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that depictions of gruesome violence that are commonplace in Western media are more likely to disturb or offend than the type of humor we see with Haurchefant.

As for your statement about 'numbers', I'm going to assume you're referring to sexual assault. They're not, at least not to the level you're claiming. The numbers are still extremely low compared to other countries, and it's likely that this upward trend in crime statistics will dip as the months carry on.

According to a Kyodo News Article:

"The total number of criminal offenses in Japan in 2022 increased 5.9 percent to 601,389, marking the first expansion in 20 years, according to provisional figures released by the agency.

Among them, six serious crimes, including murder and sex-related offenses, grew 8.1 percent to 9,536 cases, with the number of cases of forced intercourse rising to a record high since a 2017 revision in the criminal law changed the definition of the crime and strengthened penalties."

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Plenty of people don't know those lines. Sure, you might, and I might, but others do not. They see this sort of trope and feel like "oh, I can do it too." Heck, it's even in an episode of 90s Sailor Moon with the Shin-chan reference! Yeah, it's a kid, but sometimes, they don't grow out of it or learn that no, that sort of thing isn't okay. It's the same with video games - a whole thing happened back in the early aughts with Jack Whatshisname going VIDEO GAMES MAKE KIDS VIOLENT etc., and while it was proven that no, it's not just the vidya but a multitude of factors, other media factors into it. No, it may not be everyone, but seeing that behaviour be gotten away with in media does, in fact, embolden some to do the same.

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Again, this is wrong. Seeing things like this be 'gotten away with' in fiction doesn't tell people, in a non-fictional context, that such things would be appropriate or acceptable outside of that fictional context.

You're referring to Jack Thompson, a conservative now-disbarred lawyer who tried to sue the publishers, developers, and distributors of violent video games on behalf of the families of perpetrators and victims of gun violence.
(He also tried to sue over 'Bully' having scenes where the male minor protagonist kisses another boy, claiming it was inappropriate or explicit, because he's a conservative with a censorious attitude)

He repeatedly tried to link violent video games and other media with real-world violent actions, relying on later-debunked and retracted studies on behavioral psychology that were bankrolled by conservative interest groups for use in public policy debates so they could censor things, most notably anything to do with violence or sex. Jack, these groups (notably Family Research Council,Morality in Media (now called NCOSE)), and the papers cited argued similar, if not functionally identical, language to yours wherein they argued that people cannot distinguish between reality and fiction and perceive these fantastical depictions as condonement, which in turn promotes risk, and should be suppressed.

No evidence exists to conclusively support these links, and even correlational evidence is scant, yet people uncomfortable about this will continue to lean into these in order to ground or validate their discomfort.

I can also get into the psychology of right and wrong and how ethics or morals form, but for the sake of brevity (or something akin to it), I won't.
People don't react to things that are fictional as they would if it were real, that contextualized engagement in and of itself affects how such information is perceived.

We're all aware of the old stereotype of children imitating what they see on TV because they don't know that such things are not possible in real-life or that they'll get hurt if they try, or adopting attitudes and personality traits similar to that of the characters they watch on cartoons because they think it's fashionable or seek guidance, but the reality of media effects are not that simple, if at all representative of those tropes. Even if they do things, they eventually learn, either due to parental or social intervention or because they begin to realize that they're not characters in a TV show.

I recall being a child one summer, taking the tarp of a tent, some fishing line, and an old gym bag to create a makeshift parachute and jumping off my friend's roof, only to realize halfway thru that what I was doing might actually harm me, so I put everything away and spent that afternoon feeding raisins to turtles instead.
I can also recall adopting certain words, phrases, or personality traits because I wanted to feel 'cool' or edgy, which is fine, but such things are a far cry from condoning what is essentially sexual harassment. Even as a child I knew that such things were different, as did all of my peers.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

I know what Tanabata is, it's not solely a Japanese holiday either - you mentioned it yourself, that it was borrowed from China, something that Japan does. Their version of Christmas is the heavily Western version, as is Valentine's Day, borrowing it from the west. The only thing that their Christmas has over ours is their love of KFC on Christmas. As it stands, the Summer event has never been in line with Tanabata - if it was, it'd be in July, not August, and it's a pretty general holiday. The XI version of the Summer event, as I mentioned, was more traditionally Japanese and has more of that feel over XIV's version (I can admit I prefer the XI Summer music over the XIV Summer music though, I always play it while doing the quests lol).

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Well, a lot of customs and traditions have roots that go back centuries to ancient China, so it makes sense for each culture to have their own take or spin on what is fundamentally the same holiday or tradition.
The invocation of globalized Western holidays isn't really a talking point. I'd argue that the cultural significance of Christmas specifically is largely being synchronized between JP and Western cultures, since the rise of secularism in the West makes the theistic elements behind it all less and less relevant. The fact that Dragon Quest X, which was at one point region-locked and Japan-exclusive MMO has Christmas events sort of says something about how these holidays are seen.

And yes, the KFC Christmas thing is both funny but also messed up, but no harm no foul, I guess. It's been ingrained in the seasonal culture for a lot of people, and it's not like 'fan death' in South Korea, where laypeople would attribute the loss of loved one in the night to a ceiling fan being on with the door and window not being open.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

They are valid responses. "I don't like it" is a response. I don't think namecalling or disrespect is necessary on either side, but saying "my view is the ONLY one that is valid" is an easy way for people to start wanting to clown on you. I don't have to concede anything beyond "it's a thing that happened that they've said they'll be better about in the future to make sure all localizations are what the JP version is, while the JP side will change things based on what they discuss," which they have done.

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I have preferences, as does you and everyone else, but simply asserting one's viewpoint without anything of substance to ground it is not really a valid way of debating or discussing things. I prefer to ground my preferences on things that are tangible and real, as does anyone, especially if they're being challenged.
You can go back and see all of my views on the matter, see each post, and draw a timeline of what my initial posts were vs. the visceral reactions of others.

I never asserted something without a basis or groundwork for which it can stand, and such things are logical and well-rounded.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

A lot of people see their avatar as an extension of themselves. I don't, since my characters are their own thing (roleplayer ftr) but not everyone does that. Plenty of people make their characters look like them or what they would perhaps like to be (who doesn't want to be a catgirl in Catgirls Online!) so yes, some people do see it that way. YOU may not, but someone else DOES.

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That also doesn't mean that those who do shouldn't be prioritized over those that don't, nor does that necessarily put their insecurities over the flaws inherent with the actions that SE's LOC team took.

Players can and do project aspects of themselves onto their characters, no doubt about it. The WoL is a silent protagonist, but to the extent that it would transmogrify certain actions taken against your character as actions taken against your actual person is just obtuse. You're not being approached by another player in text chat or being forced into an RP scenario that you don't feel comfortable playing in, you're watching a pre-rendered cutscene play out, reading pre-written dialog. It's just not the same, as it lacks the social factor of dealing with a human being or the interpersonal consequence. It's objectively not the same.

I'm not trying to invalidate the discomfort that people may feel/have felt about the writing, but to argue anything beyond either not being entertained by it or finding the writing creepy or unsettling just doesn't feel genuine, or if it's pitched as genuine, it's unclear. It's hard for me to take that on good-faith.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

The forums are not a majority of the players of this game, either. The forums are a fairly small set of players compared to other social media.

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Right, but SE spends most of their time looking at their own forum or what's sent to them via 'Support Desk' in-game. The r/ffxiv subreddit isn't official, but maybe the discord is? I'm not sure, but you get my point now.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

When more and more people are saying "this makes me feel uncomfortable/makes me remember when this sort of thing happened and made me feel unsafe", it is. As I mentioned, if the same things were in place that are now for their localization process, they likely would have changed the lines wholesale even in JP/FR/DE.

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My point was about people deliberately overlooking all the things he does in the story being overshadowed by a debaucherist facade and being unable to disentangle reality from fiction.
I would have preferred a unified experience, no question, but that's not what we got, and much of the disdain for Haurchefant feels very artificial and not valid. I think it would be good for people to be exposed to it for what it is. It's not my place (nor SE's place) to assume 'exposure therapy' but all of it could be safely overlooked. It's not like it would have ruined the experience for these players.

A lot of people just don't like the archtype and are unwiling to cut corners within the cultural disparity,m and such unwillingness shouldn't be rewarded or incentivized this way, preferential or not.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

And while we're on that subject, do you know how many people recoiled at the thought of the old Saban Moon, back in the day?

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Oh I'm sure it was a lot, but if you're willing to suggest that content be localized then why not just go all the way?
Can you really say that the proof-of-concept that was 'Saban Moon' wouldn't mesh with US audiences, had they not seen the original Sailor Moon? Literally everyone I know who was into 'Power Rangers' when they were kids unanimously agrees that 'Super Sentai' is objectively superior, but they still enjoyed what they got here. But my point was, if you're going to go out of your way to localize something like this, you should either go all-out do that and retain some degree of artistic or literary integrity (since it's a new thing created from the ground up for that market), rather than minimize or recoil your own content.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

"Comedy" implies it is funny to everyone, or nearly everyone. It's not funny to people who have been harassed like that. There's probably some who don't care, that's fine, but plenty have said "it's not funny to me". I can enjoy Japanese culture and anime without someone constantly going "haha boobies" because that gets old. It got old in 7DS with Meliodas, it got old with Master Roshi. It's honestly a trope that can fade out.

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Seth MacFarlane talked about getting phone calls from angry/offended boomers when Family Guy first aired and characterized it as "hate mail from Hitler". It's still comedy, but I digress.

As for your critique of the trope and it not being funny, that's fine, but to argue that they're wrong or shouldn't make them in order to accommodate those who would otherwise prefer naught is insensitive to the rights of the artists.

I stand by what I had previously said. For you, it may be a tired trope with nothing more to offer you, but for myself and others it's a form of valid entertainment, and we should be open to it being expressed and enjoyed accordingly, not cheer it on for being censored this way.

Set aside your own feelings on this and at least be willing to acknowledge that it was wrong for them to function this way.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

And if you're still wondering why people don't want to debate with you, this is your answer. "I don't care about your reasoning despite asking why, I'm right and you're wrong." is not asking for a debate, it's challenging people to try and change your mind when you've already dug in your heels and put your fingers in your ears to drown it out. the entirety of the quote I don't even need to say anything to, since it's the very tired "JP subs are superior" argument I've heard for decades now. Using "you people" as an insult won't get you anyone wanting to debate with you either.

If my pulling stats and going "hm, maybe a real world thing that can bring irl harm to people being in a game is kinda bad" was such a slight to you, then don't ask for people to actually debate you. If you won't respect my own thoughts, and the thoughts of others on the subject, then no, you don't deserve a debate. You need to grow up and realize that your worldview is not the only one, and perhaps you should be more conscious of others' worldviews, what they have been through, and what may or may not be a discomfort big enough that yes, they would have dropped something. I don't find the scene linked to be that bad, no, and I found the "BE MY STEED" line funny in 2014's Heavensturn. But constantly throughout msq would have gotten old, as it does for me after it's been played out relentlessly because they're just a 1-dimensional character that goes "haha boobies" for juvenile laughs. Regardless, I'm no longer involved in this conversation. I already spent an hour and a half longer than I should have writing this and missed my work window.

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I mean.. I could say the same thing about people who've witnessed murders or had some other form of violent or nonsexual trauma be depicted in a video game. I can't say that they're wrong for having opinions or preferences, but I can certainly criticize them for wanting to see their preferences catered to at the expense of artistic and literary integrity, which is my whole point.

I originally started this thread wanting to see what people's thoughts were and whether it were likely that SE would go back and correct the issue, or perhaps conceptualize a manner in which they could do just that. This, of course, bleeds heavily into a variety of different territories (from slippery slope fallacious arguments about media effects, to sex crime statistics in Japan). It all becomes so tiresome.

man how is this thread still goin'?

Anyway, the answer is "no".

From the PLL in Korea.

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Q.Why is Haurchefant a completely different character in the cutscenes in the Korean version?

A.Haurchefant's character was different in the Japanese and english version back in 2.xx and we only noticed 2 patches later when the players from NA informed us something was wrong about the localization. Now the korean version is based on the english version so that's why he seems like a totally different character.

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Korea using the NA Haurchefant too.