Job action combos one button

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

What? My entire point was never about oGCDs, just about combo collapsing itself (like is the thread's topic). I am still confused as to why oGCDs and positionals were even brought up as counter in the first place. Did I ever claim they require no attention or that keeping up your combo is the only thing? If so I would like you to point that out to me so I can clear up a misunderstanding.

I find this a very weird leap in logic you have there tbh: I doubt that the people who want combo collapsing are interested in rotation optimization therefore I definitely dont optimize my rotation.

---

I don't care if they are interested in optimized rotations or not. I care about the fact that if they did make this change it would NOT be an optional setting. They would be forced to simplify the game even further which would in turn make the game worse. It did nothing to improve PvP and I don't want that level of simplification bleeding over into pve.

I play games like SWTOR and FFXIV specifically for this type of combat system. I'm tired of players who can't be bothered to keybind come in and advocate for making the game as simplistic as possible. They've already ruined swtor for me with the 7.0 combat changes and I've since unsubbed from that game. I don't want that happening here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

I don't care if they are interested in optimized rotations or not. I care about the fact that if they did make this change it would NOT be an optional setting. They would be forced to simplify the game even further which would in turn make the game worse. It did nothing to improve PvP and I don't want that level of simplification bleeding over into pve.

---

Why are we using a setting about as different as a different MMO entirely (XIV's PvP) as evidence for there being no chance of consolidation being optional?

PvP's consolidation was done in order to allow level entry-level players to jump straight into the level-cap toolkit of PvP, or, put less kindly, to dumb down the level-cap PvP toolkits to that of PvP content's entry levels. It was an addendum to a far larger plan specifically and deliberately aimed at simplification.

That context does not apply also to PvE, for which a level-cap kit is not the same as a level 30's and the dev's do not insist on some hard cap of a dozenish job actions.

Chocobo racing has about as much relevance to the broader designs of PvE as does PvP in this game; since Stormblood, XIV has already stripped any illusion of its PvP following the same design philosophies as its PvE, instead being plenty happy turn PvE into some hybrid of a mini-game and reference to PvE actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why are we using a setting about as different as a different MMO entirely (XIV's PvP) as evidence for there being no chance of consolidation being optional?

---

Gnashing Fang's combo would like a word with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

Gnashing Fang's combo would like a word with you.

---

Does its word explain why one would conflate wholly different contexts?

Seriously, you'd find more relevance towards existing (real) jobs' PvE kits in a design decision from Blue Mage as evidence than in XIV's PvP. PvP has been a thing unto itself since Stormblood.

"There may be an odd quirk of coding by which it's actually harder to copy-over a past design for stacked actions for specific combos without also doing the extra work of removing the existing, separate actions" would actually be a more reasonable warning against consolidation than "It was included as a small part of PvP's sweeping changes towards simplification, so anything that uses it would doubtless face the same lack of options as PvE."

The latter treats a tool as having inherent motive and context; it doesn't. Combo consolidation would do for PvE only exactly what the precise buttonflows of having consolidated combos would do for PvE. It does not necessitate it's being a non-option. It does not necessitate sweeping changes towards simplification.

________________________

As for Gnashing Fang itself, I'd agree that we should regain the option to separate it, even if I can understand why SE didn't much feel it made sense for one job's equivalent of Goring Blade/Storm's Eye to take up three times as many unique keys as the others'.

A small note, though: Gnashing Fang has never been a combo as codified by the game any more than, say, Forked/Fleeting. It's only ever been a series of skills that provide 10s buffs which unlock others in that series. As such, one could already just key-swipe across them (WT->JS->GF) to queue the next among whichever of the trio was possible rather than ever needing to track one's step in that series or hit a particular button per that step.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Does its word explain why one would conflate wholly different contexts?

Seriously, you'd find more relevance towards existing (real) jobs' PvE kits in a design decision from Blue Mage as evidence than in XIV's PvP. PvP has been a thing unto itself since Stormblood.

"There may be an odd quirk of coding by which it's actually harder to copy-over a past design for stacked actions for specific combos without also doing the extra work of removing the existing, separate actions" would actually be more reasonable than "It was included as a small part of PvP's sweeping changes towards simplification, so anything that uses it would doubtless face the same lack of options as PvE."

---

Was more debating your stance that it would be an option with proof from GNB's recent change in EW with Gnashing Fang's combo. It wasn't an option for players then and I don't see why SE would change it's stance here.

As I've said, condensing a combo is more likely to also come with more buttons to replace it to cut down on button bloat than be an option for players who have actual needs for them to be condense for QoL or ease of access.

And even if they did decide for it to be an option now, that doesn't mean they won't change their stance later to address new skills being added by forcing it on everyone else.

Its a lose-lose situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

As I've said, condensing a combo is more likely to also come with more buttons to replace it to cut down on button bloat than be an option for players who have actual needs for them to be condense for QoL or ease of access.

---

But what evidence is there for that?

For the time being, they seem perfectly happy to have some jobs with up to 7 keys more than others. Apart from opportunities for sales points via shiny (and I do mean shiny) new job trailer abilities (regardless of their actual gameplay quality), they've been in no rush to fill bar space or even patch gaping holes in job depth left by past action-pruning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But what evidence is there for that?

For the time being, they seem perfectly happy to have some jobs with up to 7 keys more than others. Apart from opportunities for sales points via shiny (and I do mean shiny) new job trailer abilities (regardless of their actual gameplay quality), they've been in no rush to fill bar space or even patch gaping holes in job depth left by past action-pruning.

---

I have 0 evidence to support that consolidation = more skills other than "well the players are going to expect new skills come X cap level lets see where we can squeeze more buttons" /shrug

But again, I still do not see this being an option. All or nothing seems to be SE's MO for a lot of things. In this it should be an option. People like PvP's condensed skills for PvE's combo's better.

I personally hate it. It isn't easier or harder I just don't like it and would rather not have it. Will I quit the game over it? No. I still have GNB being played and I adjusted even if my muscle memory still rebels after all this time. Do I like it? No. Do I want it back? Yes. Am I getting it back? Evidence says no, "that's rough buddy".

Is it still unfair to deny other WoLs a change that would aid them in an area they cannot help? Yes, which is why, as I've said I'm not going to die upon this hill. I have other things to be rooting for.
I'd adapt to the change regardless.

Will I hate SE for not making it an option like they should and forcing it on me? Well I hate every Role Play quest I have to go through so far so this won't be any different.

So my stance will remain: if it isn't an option I don't want it. And I still don't see it being an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

if it isn't an option I don't want it. And I still don't see it being an option.

---

I agree with you on the first, but because this isn't going to happen without player push regardless (as it'd unfavorably lay bare a great deal of the dev's feigned "depth" on combo-heavy jobs), I see no reason why that player push would be incapable of pushing for "We want this option" over "We want this change."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I agree with you on the first, but because this isn't going to happen without player push regardless (as it'd unfavorably lay bare a great deal of the dev's feigned "depth" on combo-heavy jobs), I see no reason why that player push would be incapable of pushing for "We want this option" over "We want this change."

---

It has less to do with lack of faith in the players to ask for an option and more to do with lack of faith in the devs for making it an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

I have 0 evidence to support that consolidation = more skills other than "well the players are going to expect new skills come X cap level lets see where we can squeeze more buttons" /shrug

---

that doesn't really mean it'll only happen because of consolidation.
In fact, it would support the need for consolidation even more.
Because it means that new skills are expected to be added.
Because those added buttons can take the spot of the consolidated buttons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

that doesn't really mean it'll only happen because of consolidation.
In fact, it would support the need for consolidation even more.
Because it means that new skills are expected to be added.
Because those added buttons can take the spot of the consolidated buttons.

---

But, do we expect more skills to be added, let alone the kind that'd deserve their own buttons if we were already partly targeting of button efficiency in giving the option for consolidating inflexible combos?

Apart from at most a single goodie per job, Shadowbringers and Endwalker did little more than recycle old buttons, trimming some bloat (Invigorate, etc.) and some vital capacities in favor of generic extensions of old skills or low-depth 'options' like AoE | ST shared variants of shared resource/CD skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, do we expect more skills to be added, let alone the kind that'd deserve their own buttons if we were already partly targeting of button efficiency in giving the option for consolidating inflexible combos?

Apart from at most a single goodie per job, Shadowbringers and Endwalker did little more than recycle old buttons, trimming some bloat (Invigorate, etc.) and some vital capacities in favor of generic extensions of old skills or low-depth 'options' like AoE | ST shared variants of shared resource/CD skills.

---

what I'm expecting will happen.
more passives.
more changing skills like egress + regress, reaping etc etc.
either way, consolidation WILL happen after a time. If not out of convenience, out of necessity. Or the cooler term, streamlining.
Hell, story characters like Thancred and Hien already has it when we play them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

what I'm expecting will happen.
more passives.
more changing skills like egress + regress, reaping etc etc.
either way, consolidation WILL happen after a time. If not out of convenience, out of necessity. Or the cooler term, streamlining.
Hell, story characters like Thancred and Hien already has it when we play them.

---

I'd certainly take passives (especially, involved, mechanics-generating passives) over a recycle of former (and, historically, better) abilities in favor of tack-ons, but I don't think they've seen any reason to start better designing kits. As much as we might complain about certain skills or outcomes, we haven't presented a cohesive view of what would constitute better kits, let alone what capacities could be --or better function as-- passives or what we're unwilling to sacrifice for another expansion's worth of largely tack-on skills.

Though it'd be more productive than consolidation alone if successful (not that we can't have both), asking for "meaningful kit mechanics" is a far harder banner to wave than simply to simply ask the devs to "give us the option to consolidate," and we've already seen the Monkey Paw outcomes of any more general changes to reduce button bloat. I say "harder" because our ideas of what makes for a meaningful mechanic are far more varied than our ideas of button bloat, and even the latter would see very different solutions.

Optional consolidation, though, could help us push that discussion up a step, in discussing what is and is not worth an obligatory separate button, offering us a crowbar for that more complex matter of what are meaningful kit mechanics and how to build around them.

Sorry, I'm sure I've made countless typos and little sense in my stupor by now, so let me just put it more directly:

We have yet to see the devs actively pursue any agenda, outside of response to the most popular points of feedback, to which consolidation would be a worthwhile step. At best, they respond to very specific consolidation requests in isolation, such as per Gnashing Fang before; there is no cohesive design philosophy surrounding such that has been (or is likely to be) revealed to us, be that by actions or direct developer commentary.

Perhaps consolidation, for instance, is something they'd look at doing only if/when it wouldn't leave the job with too little apparent depth; or perhaps it's acted on only if those already popular suggestions coincide with what they wanted to do anyways (e.g., doubling down on all things cartridge), such that they can seem responsive at the same time their cover their asses. We don't know. Without enough actions heading towards it or said commentary, we can't know.

As such, we're left to guess for ourselves whether matters like button efficiency, thematic design, etc., particularly matter to the devs. I do not have the time or wakefulness presently to situate all evidence that comes to mind, but when I consider the changes we've seen over the chain of expansions, I can't help but lean towards "no". Their priorities seem to be solidly on meeting presumed expectations: cool-looking new skills by which to briefly hype expansions, basic and increasingly straightforward capacity increases (seemingly for the nonetheless surface-depth tryhardcore players among us), and maybe a new gimmick or two the weaknesses of which will hopefully take a while to be popularly noted. None among button efficiency, depth, fluidity, identity, etc., are guiding principles; they are merely constraints insofar as a design may otherwise receive backlash.

But what does that mean for us? Simply put, that there is likely no existing momentum towards improved kits, and as such, if we want to see improvements, we'd need to promote certain steps that can be easily communicated and minimally misconstrued that will help situate the design considerations we'd want devs to eventually use regularly and meaningfully. While it might seem an isolated QoL matter, and such can help sell it, consolidation has significant value --and danger-- as a stepping-stone. Just barely behind it lie the questions of engagement through button-flow and button-efficiency, the both of which can meet to examine the quality of how much maximal depth and subjective engagement a kit offers. That can be huge.

But if it gets sold as anything but an option, then we could as easily be welcoming in yet more rarely used, convoluted, and/or "fluff" actions in place of button-flow valuable to some/many/most (a group who --like any other group bounded by a preference-- is hard to measure but whom we can assume, I think, is definitely larger than those who enjoy the likes of AoE|ST fluff actions in present contexts). That's not okay, and what it'd set up would be even less okay.

:: To try to wrap this up, optional consolidation, whether guised only as a QoL feature or in its full sense of both QoL and design scrutiny, can do a lot to push nearer a fruitful conversation about better kit and buttonflow design. It can be a force that would in turn cause other improvements down the line. Other topical changes may do likewise*, but I suspect this is one of the easier --or even the easiest-- of ways to get the ball rolling. If I had any sense that the devs were already pushing towards increased kit scrutiny (beyond the sense of funneling anything and everything towards minimally situational throughput --or, the most direct rDPS contribution possible), I would likely ask that we engage first with the cues and clues the devs are giving us, rather than pushing this policy forward unsupported by favorable contexts. But I see no trace of that. As such, I suspect WE need to start, even if just in some discrete way that can be easily bandied and bannered.

* (A QoL-seeming desire for movement skills like Elusive to check pathing and thereby not --just barely-- throw us off cliffs mid-combat could in turn unlock a plethora of interesting movement skills --set-distance cleaving charges, to-behind-target closers, etc.-- that could eventually reinvigorate the DDR aspects of boss fights, wherefrom others aspects of kit design might then ask for, and try to tap into, that degree or style of "fun", for instance.)

/rant

My apologies for whatever errors I've left here. I will edit this as needed when I am less tired and thereby more lucid, even if we're already pages further along.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snip

---

expansions will most likely have new skills/adjustments to existing skills.
They don't need to have an agenda, it'll happen simply because it's a new expansion, therefore we must have new or improved stuff.
Just imagine the complaints if a new expansion only upgrades potency old skills.
I mean, just count how many skills have been removed since ARR.

as for what I want from bloat removal from current state, I just want them to stack the skills that only increases potency with each combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

what I'm expecting will happen.
more passives.
more changing skills like egress + regress, reaping etc etc.
either way, consolidation WILL happen after a time. If not out of convenience, out of necessity. Or the cooler term, streamlining.
Hell, story characters like Thancred and Hien already has it when we play them.

---

And that will be the day I quit playing this game.

The reason why Thancred and Hien are like that tho is because they're meant to be easy for people that have never played GNB or SAM before ( and also so EVERYONE can clear the content ).

If anything I wish they added more skills to them and made them more like the real Jobs on Normal and made them what they are right now on Easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

as for what I want from bloat removal from current state, I just want them to stack the skills that only increases potency with each combo.

---

Taking that literally, that is your Full Thrust combo from Dragoon and Aeolian Edge combo from Ninja, every other combo does more than just 'add damage'. You could technically add Reaper's combo in there as each hit adds the same gauge.

Again, however, I ask, what can they realistically add? The GCDs for jobs are fixed in what they can do, how often they are used that adding something else is going to throw everything out of whack.

You cannot add another combo to Samurai, for example, as it would just delay your Iaijutsus, unless you want this combo to also grant a Sen, at which point, you have just made a redundant combo. There is similar arguments for every job and, unless they rework the job, I highly doubt you are going to see anything substantial in regards to GCDs. As for oGCDs, again, people tend to not enjoy a button that just does damage. It needs to have another effect or be used as the result of building up some gauge. If you keep adding things in, at what point do they start to feel tacked on?

I highly suspect there is going to be a fair amount of job reworks coming, which is where the devs can go back to the start and build from the bottom up. They have already eluded to this for BLM for example.

As for the claim that jobs that only get updated moves are going to breed complaints, that is going to depend on how they do it. PLD for example, everything they got is just action upgrades, Sheltron > Holy Sheltron, Spirit's Within > Expiacion, even the Blade Combo is just the Goring Blade combo, yet, it still feels good to use. As someone who uses PLD a lot, it still felt different enough and it also bought a different mindset, ie. an extra 3 GCDs we can stay at ranged, Expiacion can be used as a pulling tool when in dungeons as it is now AoE etc. The only thing I wish they would have done was an upgrade for Circle of Scorn.

Whilst Monk was reworked, technically, all Monk gets from 81-90 is action upgrades. SMN comes close as it just allows the use of Gemshine with Primals, MCH really only gets Chain Saw as a new action etc. When you actually look at what was added across all jobs, most are just QoL/action upgrades with a couple of new actions. So, I would not say that just adding action upgrades is bad, as long as, for the most part, they do add something extra to the action it upgrades and not necessarily just damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

as for what I want from bloat removal from current state, I just want them to stack the skills that only increases potency with each combo.

---

That seems an odd limit to set. It'd account for almost nothing. Technically, it'd only even amount to Aeolian Edge, as Full Thrust (+2) ultimately procs Draconian Fire, Storm's Path generates gauge, Royal Authority procs Sword Oath (the Atonement casts from which can be split off), etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

And that will be the day I quit playing this game.

---

And, in turn, "more [not solely, just more] of a given expansion's added capacities and functions to be granted via passives (specifically not merely potency-increasing traits, as mentioned on prior pages)," as opposed to being given through ability pruning and recycling, is where you draw the line?

There is no version where you get more buttons of actions and retain a given button count cap (as the devs themselves have said constrains them) without pruning or consolidating. Given that, Hagare is right that consolidation may be necessary if we are to avoid losing further key abilities and further squelching the leveling experience. One might even, quite reasonably, say that being anti-consolidation without expecting further actions or specifically contesting the devs in regard to button count caps will generally be, in effect, pro-pruning.

I have no problems with their current approach recently of simply upgrading skills to new animations and potency increases. I'd rather that approach to maintaining things over cutting my input list in half because people can't bother to learn how to keyboard and want to lazily press 1 key.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

And that will be the day I quit playing this game.

---

how have you not quit?
We've already lost skills.
just in 6.0:
PLD Enhanced Requiescat
AST lost sects and sleeve draw
BLM lost enochian and sleep
SMN Bio, Summon, Miasma, Egi Assault, Summon II, Bio II, Bane, Summon III, Egi Assault II, Enkindle, Tri-disaster, Aetherpact, Devotion, Bio III, Miasma III, and Firebird Trance
DRG dragon blood sigh. I'm gonna miss blue aura on demand
SAM Merciful Eyes and Hissatsu: Seigan
WHM Fluid aura
SCH Sic
MNK Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, Shoulder Tackle, and Fists of Fire

maybe I shoulda said, "what I'm expecting will happen, again"
and yet, here you are xD

PS: There's a youtube vid about the leaving skills/effect in EW xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

I have no problems with their current approach recently of simply upgrading skills to new animations and potency increases. I'd rather that approach to maintaining things over cutting my input list in half because people can't bother to learn how to keyboard and want to lazily press 1 key.

---

again, your APM doesn't change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That seems an odd limit to set. It'd account for almost nothing. Technically, it'd only even amount to Aeolian Edge, as Full Thrust (+2) ultimately procs Draconian Fire, Storm's Path generates gauge, Royal Authority procs Sword Oath (the Atonement casts from which can be split off), etc.

---

Yeah, It's just the skills that I see can be collapsed without changing the class too much. SE's gone much further than what I'm asking for xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As for the claim that jobs that only get updated moves are going to breed complaints, that is going to depend on how they do it. PLD for example, everything they got is just action upgrades, Sheltron > Holy Sheltron, Spirit's Within > Expiacion, even the Blade Combo is just the Goring Blade combo, yet, it still feels good to use. As someone who uses PLD a lot, it still felt different enough and it also bought a different mindset, ie. an extra 3 GCDs we can stay at ranged, Expiacion can be used as a pulling tool when in dungeons as it is now AoE etc. The only thing I wish they would have done was an upgrade for Circle of Scorn.

---

Didn't PLD use to have shield oath?
An interchangeable stance with sword oath?
and it happened before 6.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

what I'm expecting will happen.
more passives.
more changing skills like egress + regress, reaping etc etc.
either way, consolidation WILL happen after a time. If not out of convenience, out of necessity. Or the cooler term, streamlining.
Hell, story characters like Thancred and Hien already has it when we play them.

---

And both are some of the most horrendously boring gameplay experiences in the entire game. Personally, I've long found the whole "playing as the scions" novelty having long worn off and dread every time we suddenly switch to them. Granted, this is purely from a gameplay perspective. Storywise, I genuinely like several of those segments.

Nevertheless, we won't necessarily ever get to that point even with combo consolidation because of oGCDs unlike the very limited action suite Thancred and the like have. If we did, I'd likely not be playing.

It doesn't have to happen ever though. Look at jobs like Dragoon, which have simply upgraded long old animations ala Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust. Not to mention, several jobs have far too many throwaway abilities that still haven't been pruned away. It all depends on the direction they go and how many new abilities are actually added. Endwalker didn't really add much of anything for a good number of jobs. Although, ironically, it bloated others. Suffice it to say, they've been rather... inconsistent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There is no version where you get more buttons of actions and retain a given button count cap (as the devs themselves have said constrains them) without pruning or consolidating. Given that, Hagare is right that consolidation may be necessary if we are to avoid losing further key abilities and further squelching the leveling experience. One might even, quite reasonably, say that being anti-consolidation without expecting further actions or specifically contesting the devs in regard to button count caps will generally be, in effect, pro-pruning.

---

To be fair, the leveling experience being so abysmal has more to do with them refusing to readjust when jobs learn their abilities. Bard, for example, wouldn't even benefit from any consolidation as it (like all the prange) have a barren hotbar suite. And yet, the leveling experience borders on healer levels gameplay with the sheer amount of Straight Shot spam you do. Bard doesn't even get it's main song until 52. Frankly, I'd been fine doing without new abilities entirely if it meant cleaning up the existing jobs come 7.0. Or at the very least, simply sticking to animation upgrades like the aforementioned Dragoon example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

how have you not quit?
We've already lost skills.
just in 6.0:
PLD Enhanced Requiescat
AST lost sects and sleeve draw
BLM lost enochian and sleep
SCH Bio, Summon, Miasma, Egi Assault, Summon II, Bio II, Bane, Summon III, Egi Assault II, Enkindle, Tri-disaster, Aetherpact, Devotion, Bio III, Miasma III, and Firebird Trance
DRG dragon blood
SAM Merciful Eyes and Hissatsu: Seigan
WHM Fluid aura
SCH Sic
MNK Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, Shoulder Tackle, and Fists of Fire

---

Almost none of these are good examples though. Blood of the Dragoon and Enochian were essentially nonexistent for decent Dragoons and Black Mages. They only impacted inexperienced players who weren't yet accustom to the job. Likewise, you even cares about Sleep, Sic or Fluid Aura? All were completely worthless. Seigan was little more than a meme.

Really, the only major examples here and Monk and Summoner. However, they didn't so much as lose abilities wholly redesigned from the ground up. It really isn't a fair comparison. You'd have been better off mentioning DoTs or Bard's loss of Foe's Requiem. Stuff like that actually impacted these respective jobs. What you listed largely did not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And both are some of the most horrendously boring gameplay experiences in the entire game. Personally, I've long found the whole "playing as the scions" novelty having long worn off and dread every time we suddenly switch to them. Granted, this is purely from a gameplay perspective. Storywise, I genuinely like several of those segments.

---

do remember that they don't even get the full set of skill their class. Only the necessary ones to clear the fight.

and an extra stealth one for Thancred xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

how have you not quit?
We've already lost skills.
just in 6.0:
PLD Enhanced Requiescat
AST lost sects and sleeve draw
BLM lost enochian and sleep
SMN Bio, Summon, Miasma, Egi Assault, Summon II, Bio II, Bane, Summon III, Egi Assault II, Enkindle, Tri-disaster, Aetherpact, Devotion, Bio III, Miasma III, and Firebird Trance
DRG dragon blood sigh. I'm gonna miss blue aura on demand
SAM Merciful Eyes and Hissatsu: Seigan
WHM Fluid aura
SCH Sic
MNK Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, Shoulder Tackle, and Fists of Fire

---

I don't have a problem with removing redundant or useless abilities. I just don't want to go through what both WoW and SWTOR have done. I have no interest in the concept of condensed actions into a single button. Pressing 1 a thousand times isn't appealing to me. I like have 20+ keybinds, its why I play these games and its the same reason I quit WoW when they turned my ret pally into a 3 button spam fest zzzzzzzz.

Enochian being built in made sense.

Blood of the dragon was pointless. I loved the animation, but it was a pointless button. You literally pop it at the start of the fight and you never press it again because your rotation kept it refreshed.

MNK stances were stupid....sorry, not sorry. Shoulder tackle I don't consider much of a loss because my mobility literally tripled with the new gap closer where as shoulder tackle I never had it available for actual movement because it was weaved in for damage.

SMN got a complete rework. It is what it is. I don't think it was a good idea to make it as simplistic as it was, but old SMN was clunky and horrible to play. It needed a rework.

SAM.....again, two useless skills that really only got used on rare occasions. I prefer 3rd eye giving kenki now and the new aoe is much appreciated.

I can't really comment on the rest as I don't play healer and my Pally is only 79.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To be fair, the leveling experience being so abysmal has more to do with them refusing to readjust when jobs learn their abilities. Bard, for example, wouldn't even benefit from any consolidation as it (like all the prange) have a barren hotbar suite. And yet, the leveling experience borders on healer levels gameplay with the sheer amount of Straight Shot spam you do. Bard doesn't even get it's main song until 52. Frankly, I'd been fine doing without new abilities entirely if it meant cleaning up the existing jobs come 7.0. Or at the very least, simply sticking to animation upgrades like the aforementioned Dragoon example.

---

Heavy Shot*. It was too much to ask, prior to Burst Shot, for more than a 20% chance to get to hit another button more often than twice per 45 seconds, after all.

I jest, and I see what you mean and agree on the whole. However, that wouldn't be such a concern if they hadn't already axed so damn many 1-60 abilities. A ton of what made lower-level Monk interesting, for instance, (and provided a much more nuanced form of positional freedom), for instance, were Fracture and ToD, while optimizing tank damage around stances --say, via Sword Oath, which was originally given 10 levels earlier than Shield Oath-- made for considerably more interesting tank leveling (even if the effect was much diminished in 8-man content).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

Enochian being built in made sense.

Blood of the dragon was pointless..

---

Agreed. They were, unless all went wrong, once per instance buttons. They were 100% bloat. Likewise, Kenki generation from Third Eye, though reducing the maximum oGCD potency we can bank for burst, makes far more sense, as we can then leverage Third Eye towards any Kenki spender (and its typical potency gain was more than doubled). (And Merciful Eyes seemed little more than a natural per-3s HP tick.)

Meanwhile, I can disagree on Monk stances as a concept, and indeed would prefer interesting stances over the likes of Enlightenment, Anatman, Form Shift requiring a separate key, but I can see why they were removed: we'd had 3 iterations by them of them being next to worthless except as a bloated means of access to Riddle of Wind (back when that was a GL generator and allowed for, imo, a more meaningful Tornado Kick mechanic than the late-ShB free oGCD or EW Blitz versions).

:: I'd offer that if you had opportunities to use Shoulder Tackle as a gap-closer but had already burned it on burst, that's on you and most certainly cost you more potency in uptime than you gained in damage multiplicity, but that's a mere nitpick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

3 button spam fest zzzzzzzz.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Almost none of these are good examples though.

---

that's the whole point of the thread isn't it.
Removing bloat and meaningless buttons.

lmao. ah well.
Redundancy eh.
Nothing is more redundant to me than a combo of 3 buttons with nothing in it but increase in potency.
I want buttons with actual meaning to it and not just an increase in potency and nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

Nothing is more redundant to me than a combo of 3 buttons with nothing in it but increase in potency.
I want buttons with actual meaning to it and not just an increase in potency and nothing else.

---

That "increase in potency" can itself be meaningful, though, so long as that potency is higher than what is included among the more constrained combos.

The direct potency combo might be a "filler" relative to a DoT combo or buff combo, but you could easily think of it as being "unlocked", for that greater ppgcd in itself, by the buff and DoT combo (and, obviously, the one which best synergizes with the likes of Reassemble or Life Surge).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That "increase in potency" can itself be meaningful, though, so long as that potency is higher than what is included among the more constrained combos.

The direct potency combo might be a "filler" relative to a DoT combo or buff combo, but you could easily think of it as being "unlocked", for that greater ppgcd in itself, by the buff and DoT combo (and, obviously, the one which best synergizes with the likes of Reassemble or Life Surge).

---

yeah. but it doesn't mean much if it's 123 or 111.
Because the only thing to "unlock" potency is that you press a req button.
it gives the illusion of a combo only because they're separate. When truth is, they aren't really.
Because you will 123 all day.
The APM doesn't change.
The way you play don't change.
The way you weave don't change.
What you weave don't change.
The class doesn't change.
The only really noticeable change is more freed space on the hotbar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Heavy Shot*. It was too much to ask, prior to Burst Shot, for more than a 20% chance to get to hit another button more often than twice per 45 seconds, after all.

I jest, and I see what you mean and agree on the whole. However, that wouldn't be such a concern if they hadn't already axed so damn many 1-60 abilities. A ton of what made lower-level Monk interesting, for instance, (and provided a much more nuanced form of positional freedom), for instance, were Fracture and ToD, while optimizing tank damage around stances --say, via Sword Oath, which was originally given 10 levels earlier than Shield Oath-- made for considerably more interesting tank leveling (even if the effect was much diminished in 8-man content).

---

Ahh, Heavy Shot. I always mix the two up. And yes, that... was a very silly change.

Many of those abilities were axed not out of perceived button bloat but in the name of simplification. Yoshida outright said Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot buffs were removed because casual players weren't keeping them up and it caused too large a gap between them and experienced players. I have to disagree on tank stance. I found very little interesting about it. Paladin, in particular, was especially bad given it was more optimal to simply go stance-less than switch to Sword Oath due to the GCD requirement. The devs also seem to despise DoTs nowadays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

that's the whole point of the thread isn't it.
Removing bloat and meaningless buttons.

lmao. ah well.
Redundancy eh.
Nothing is more redundant to me than a combo of 3 buttons with nothing in it but increase in potency.
I want buttons with actual meaning to it and not just an increase in potency and nothing else.

---

Your comparison still doesn't work because at least those combo actions had a function. Blood of the Dragon literally did nothing for any average Dragoon. You put it up once and never touched the button again unless there was a cut scene. It was functionally useless. Say what you will about combos but you're still pressing them. Nearly every single one of your examples didn't have that luxury. Some, like Fluid Aura and Sleep weren't even worth putting on your bar.

I'd like for buttons to mean something too. Alas, they aren't going to give us anything. So in the absence of nothing, I prefer the current system to spamming the same key endlessly. Tanks are already simplified. I'd rather not spam my 1 key 100 times. 123 isn't anything special but it's something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Say what you will about combos but you're still pressing them.

---

and you're still gonna press them.
What? you think it's gonna be automatic?
it's 123 vs 111
you still press a button, either 1x3 or 3x1
But you're still gonna press buttons 3 times. *shrug*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

and you're still gonna press them.
What? you think it's gonna be automatic?
it's 123 vs 111
you still press a button, either 1x3 or 3x1
But you're still gonna press buttons 3 times. *shrug*

---

Please don't quote me out of context. That was in response to your comparison combos to abilities like Enochian that weren't pressed whatsoever by decent Black Mages.

As for combos themselves. A good number of people prefer the feeling of actually having to move their finger across different keys than spam one. You may find there's no difference, I, on the other hand, would hate Dragoon going from what it is now to 1222111112.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ahh, Heavy Shot. I always mix the two up. And yes, that... was a very silly change.

Many of those abilities were axed not out of perceived button bloat but in the name of simplification. Yoshida outright said Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot buffs were removed because casual players weren't keeping them up and it caused too large a gap between them and experienced players. I have to disagree on tank stance. I found very little interesting about it. Paladin, in particular, was especially bad given it was more optimal to simply go stance-less than switch to Sword Oath due to the GCD requirement.

---

And that's where differing personal taste will form differing conclusions. I always felt like Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot were far duller of "ramp up" than, say, tanks' tank-stance (and enmity skill) suites, so I wasn't sad to see them go, but I very much wanted some similar (or, ideally, far greater) level of engagement with which to replace the removed tank stances and enmity kits, and we instead just got more isolated buttons tacked on / thrown in.

The only thing I ever much liked about Heavy Thrust was that I could, if forced into oddly quick SkS tiers, briefly forgo it for greater potency per minute via an extra Full Thrust where other players would be afraid to drop the buff despite the net gains for doing so. Enmity kits, while dull in 8-man content, at least gave me a fair bit more to do, though.

(In regard to that "something to do" and replacement "engagement", we might, ofc, say the same for 1-2-3 vs. 1-1-1 -- significant for some and irrelevant to others. /shrug)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Please don't quote me out of context. That was in response to your comparison combos to abilities like Enochian that weren't pressed whatsoever by decent Black Mages.

As for combos themselves. A good number of people prefer the feeling of actually having to move their finger across different keys than spam one. You may find there's no difference, I, on the other hand, would hate Dragoon going from what it is now to 1222111112.

---

huh. Decent BLM didn't use enochian. You learn something new every day.

1222111112?
I wonder what your rotation's like xD
Because if you're being real, you will always be moving your fingers across different keys.
an example. 1>2>1>3>4>1>5>1>c1> and so on and so on.
You won't just be pressing the 3 GCD combos alone. Ever.
Eh, it'll happen anyway. Somehow or the other.
With every expansion, streamlining will happen.
It happened before, it's happening now and it'll most definitely happen again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

huh. Decent BLM didn't use enochian.

---

REuse. Given Transpose (and later, Umbral Soul), there was no reason to drop Enochian, and therefore no reason to hit it more than once per instance.

The only exception was long in-fight CSs, by which time its CD would be back anyways and BLM merely joined a long line of "screwed over" jobs, and less severely so than some others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

REuse. Given Transpose (and later, Umbral Soul), there was no reason to drop Enochian, and therefore no reason to hit it more than once per instance.

The only exception was long in-fight CSs, by which time its CD would be back anyways and BLM merely joined a long line of "screwed over" jobs, and less severely so than some others.

---

No one said anything about reuse.
And now you don't have to use it all.
How, automatic. xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

No one said anything about reuse.
And now you don't have to use it all.
How, automatic. xD

---

A job that deals has a third the throughput of the second-worst job could be said to have "no" throughput. In that same sense, Enochian, as a button, was "not used" (with any frequency sufficient to warrant a button of its own) except by poorer players.

Automatic, if the button is otherwise to be spent on an only once-per-instance button, is preferable. Even combat pots offered more nuanced and meaningful use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

I'm sorry.
My brain seems to be a bit wonky today.
But can you explain what you're trying to say?

---

Out of daily posts, sorry.

Simply this:
- You've misconstrued what was at its most extreme an obvious case of mild exaggeration. (A skill used once per instance is one that goes practically unused. "Not needing to be reapplied" was also explicitly mentioned previously -- multiple times, iirc.)
- Turning Enochian into a trait was a good thing, and fits far better principles of button design that did having it as a separate action. (I'd even go so far as to say it was only ever made an action, instead of a trait, to better hype job trailers -- since the average player, especially back then, was shortsighted enough to think getting 5 new "actions" inherently more exciting than getting 5 new "actions or traits".)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

hmmmm.... a button that you only press once for the whole instance. Like the tank stance button?

---

Due to tanks having reason, at least in 8-man content, to switch their stance off, there is at least some small point in having a tank stance button. There was none, however, for Enochian. The only punishment added to someone losing Enochian except in under 27 seconds from having used it before was that it'd require a half-second of weave time due to its animation.

Enochian's punishment, moreover, was ill-aimed. It could only worsen the experience for the few players we least wanted to constrain while existing as a non-mechanic for everyone else. Imagine a fee, for instance, for making little money per day; though applied to other systems of the game, such would make about as much sense as Enochian having a cooldown, requiring weave-space, and needing its own button. There wasn't a single thing good about it outside of button fetishism.

Quote:

---

And I thought you like pressing buttons

---

You seem to be conflating my position with other camps. I do like pressing buttons at the rhythms, densities, and ranges enjoyable to me, but that range (or total button count) is only a part of the equation, and my preference falls between certain counts rather than simply seeing more buttons as better (especially if the same affordances could be managed with fewer keys).

That said, it's really time we got back to the larger topics:

• Can combo-consolidation be a QoL option (i.e., one that is not banked upon as a means, by itself, of avoiding whatever button counts the devs seen as a reasonable ceiling)?

  I've made the case that yes, it could be, so long as the same push for consolidation insists on its being an option, but I am wholly open to contrary evidence.

• If it can be an option, should that option be allowed to those who'd want it?

  Likewise, I've made the case that consolidating combos is a trade-off; some would prefer the button-efficiency of taking it while others prefer the tactile cues of the current system.

• Is it worth considering other ways of increasing efficiency and buttonflow-based engagement?

  If those are positives of allowing for or barring consolidating, how else might we pursue those benefits? And, is there enough to be had in either direction to be worth talking about or holding the job kits to harder scrutiny (in regard to buttonflow and button efficiency) for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A job that deals has a third the throughput of the second-worst job could be said to have "no" throughput. In that same sense, Enochian, as a button, was "not used" (with any frequency sufficient to warrant a button of its own) except by poorer players.

---

I'm sorry.
My brain seems to be a bit wonky today.
But can you explain what you're trying to say?

Is it that Enochian doesn't really mean much because you only press it once and you forget about it.
Except for the bad players who keep having it fall off?
And I thought you like pressing buttons :p
hmmmm.... a button that you only press once for the whole instance. Like the tank stance button?

I hate the idea of single button combos.

BUT what I think could be done and would be fairly helpful to kill (some) button bloat on jobs would be an AoE stance.

Instead of separate abilities that you press for AoE fights, it would be a stance that you throw on and you just do your "normal" rotation which now has slightly lower potency and cleaves. Cleaves would be added to some OGCD attacks too (every expansion, more and more single target OGCDs are getting shared timer AE equivalents, so most will have this). The idea would be to get rid of the emaciated AE rotations that most jobs have and make it so that the game reinforces the job's rotation more (rather than dungeon runs being about 9 minutes of your actual single target rotation and more time doing "boring" AE rotations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

Do you think we will see the day where our rotation for combos will be just one button instead of 3-4? I think it would be a blessing and cut down on the hotbar bloat that we are getting for skills. What are your opinions on it?

---

I actually support this!!

ESO has it & its pretty pragmatic/straightforward rather than have your screen be flooded with so much stuff; takes away immersion,

Simple, the better,

I vote this as a yes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

I'm sorry.
My brain seems to be a bit wonky today.
But can you explain what you're trying to say?

Is it that Enochian doesn't really mean much because you only press it once and you forget about it.
Except for the bad players who keep having it fall off?
And I thought you like pressing buttons :p
hmmmm.... a button that you only press once for the whole instance. Like the tank stance button?

---

I mean, technically a tank’s stance can be toggled on and off as an encounter deems necessary (e.g., with swaps). So you’re already pressing it more than the one-and-done buttons that were one-and-done in just about every encounter (e.g., any decent BLM and Enochian). Just because a lot of BLMs were bad and let it drop doesn’t make your argument valid. You can’t use bad play to support this…whatever it is that you’ve been going on about for a while now.


On topic: I’ve always been against the idea of combo consolidation on the basis that I don’t believe it would be an optional thing in this game, or a preference one could toggle on or off. I think they would implement it across the board, and I spam one button enough as it is on healers that I’d prefer to keep my multiple button presses for other jobs. If it were an optional setting, I really wouldn’t care if they put it in or not.

Playing on a controller, pressing X > circle > triangle > X > circle > weave in that up D-pad > etc. just feels more engaging to me than holding my controller in one hand and hitting X over and over again (a la my healer “rotation”). I think that some consolidation could be fine: things like consolidating AST’s Draw/Play and Minor Arcana/Crown Play is fine, making more “proc” toggle abilities like just turning Burst Shot into Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow is also fine. But I don’t really want to see mass consolidation. I also just don’t think they would fill in the empty space with a bunch of interesting abilities or oGCDs.