On Extreme Role-playing Within XIV

Is this where the masks come off? Where the Nazis "extreme roleplayers" come out of the closet?

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Originally Posted by BunnyChain

Is this where the masks come off? Where the Nazis "extreme roleplayers" come out of the closet?

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Well considering the political framework which produced Nazism, Facism, Socialism, Communism or whatever you wish to call it does not exist within the world for XIV makes that a no.

Yep. Furthermore, the Garleans are quite clearly based off of Romans but with a technological fantasy twist to them.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Well considering the political framework which produced Nazism, Facism, Socialism, Communism or whatever you wish to call it does not exist within the world for XIV makes that a no.

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Their sig put it quite well. :p

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Greetings, and baiting title aside I would like to begin a discussion over fringe role-playing within the game. No, not the usual degenerate type often debated, but rather what is almost never discussed. That being topics such as role-playing a character who might be racist, xenophobic or intolerant. A Garlean loyalist who believes in the cause, or a Xaela ultra nationalist. A moral compromised character. I've found these types of role-playing within XIV to be almost nonexistent and even treated as taboo. More so than even actual unseemly roleplay of the other type. This is strange to me, as I come from other games that have a much more varied community when it comes to types of characters roleplayed. It makes XIV's scene seem stagnant and boring. Thoughts on why?

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I recall one or two Garlean based FCs on an RP server. Though not sure if any exist now.

I had a character that was a Garlean soldier turned Eorzean patriot, though it wasn't easy with his accent and suspicion. Stopped playing him when my FC became a bunch of a-holes (you know who you are).

There are a number of resources out there people can use to help create characters like what you described, but in an RP setting .. it can be difficult. Communication would be paramount in such situations.

Most people in communities like gaming, FFXIV and twitter lack the maturity to separate reality from fiction when it comes to moral standards, ideology and character attitudes. This is not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Well considering the political framework which produced Nazism, Facism, Socialism, Communism or whatever you wish to call it does not exist within the world for XIV makes that a no.

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Considering that the Garlean political structure is a Fascist one, prior to it burning down to the ground, this statement doesn't make sense. That, and political ideologies can exist in fantasy as the framework that drives ideology is often part of the allegorical and derivative aspects of reality (Nanamo, for example, had a period of time when she was espousing comments that were similar to communism or socialism pending how you read them, as she was troubled that there were those who were suffering under the Ul'dahn political structure which is heavily driven by money -- the syndicate is made up of monetarists, the spots on the syndicate are granted based on wealth etc...).

Garlemald had a regimented society, were absolutely ultra-nationalists that wanted to bring their rule over others, routinely killed those others because they considered them as "savages" and used them in unethical experimentation (some of which is very highlighted in the Weapon storyline) that amounted to just murdering people for the sake of power. They do believe themselves above the rest, otherwise they wouldn't use terms like "savage" to describe anyone who is an "other" to them. There are individuals who are shown to be exceptions in some cases, albeit some of those individuals only became exceptions to that way of thinking after coming to their own conclusions independently of the Empire. There was only one, as far as I recall, claim of an internal political dissent (Maxima, the Populares) and next we hear about them later on, they're being exterminated.

Final addendum: Additionally, the ruling Emperor is bound by the political machinations of the nation and, whenever espousing action, relates it to the strengthening of the nation (and where such phrases, Glory to Garlemald/Glory be to Garlemald/the Garlean Anthem come into play). Varis and, before, Solus do not act independently from the political bodies around them, they tend to act within them more akin to a modern political dictator. And, considering the civil war, they don't hold to a Divine Right of Kings, especially as the nation tends towards atheism.

They're not 1:1 to any real life regime, though it's extremely obvious that they represent them and it's extremely easy to spot the similarities. It's probably one of the most obvious features of the story.

Like, sure you can explore these darker themes (again, with a willing group), but it does trouble me that you're claiming to wish to write these deeper, darker, nuanced stories and so far I just have:

- Character you want to write, with a defining trait of: Racism
- Doesn't know what political ideologies like fascism, communism or socialism are and when presented with one in the most obvious manner, misses it.
- Calls things you don't like "degenerate" when, in reality, it's a stupid game and is a hypocritical stance to be taking considering your original post.
- Kind of just repeats the same thing again, while the statement about actually agreeing with the Legion in a sense of real life ethicality is sort of...
- And, writing a character just to be a Racist Fascist Man with no other defining traits, narrative designed, or anything even remotely resembling a story around it is just as, if not more, dull than anything else. It has annoying brooding tavern man vibes, just a slightly different flavor. Or worse, that One Guy who was Really Into Rome and Wouldn't Shut Up About It who took the same archeology course I did in college. Worse because that guy's real.

So, what is the point of this thread other than to pretend like you just want to write nuanced, in depth and dark stories, while in reality it just seems like you have some sort of chip on your shoulder with a particular community for... some reason and you're just trying to start a fight?

Extreme Roleplaying sounds like a veil to be a scumbag. I mean, if you did it within a small group of likeminded people, I kinda guess whatever, still very unsettling.

If someone brought any garbage like that into a run or FC I was part of, it would be an instant report.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Considering that the Garlean political structure is a Fascist one, prior to it burning down to the ground, this statement doesn't make sense. That, and political ideologies can exist in fantasy as the framework that drives ideology is often part of the allegorical and derivative aspects of reality (Nanamo, for example, had a period of time when she was espousing comments that were similar to communism or socialism pending how you read them, as she was troubled that there were those who were suffering under the Ul'dahn political structure which is heavily driven by money -- the syndicate is made up of monetarists, the spots on the syndicate are granted based on wealth etc...).

Garlemald had a regimented society, were absolutely ultra-nationalists that wanted to bring their rule over others, routinely killed those others because they considered them as "savages" and used them in unethical experimentation (some of which is very highlighted in the Weapon storyline) that amounted to just murdering people for the sake of power. They do believe themselves above the rest, otherwise they wouldn't use terms like "savage" to describe anyone who is an "other" to them. There are individuals who are shown to be exceptions in some cases, albeit some of those individuals only became exceptions to that way of thinking after coming to their own conclusions independently of the Empire. There was only one, as far as I recall, claim of an internal political dissent (Maxima, the Populares) and next we hear about them later on, they're being exterminated.

They're not 1:1 to any real life regime, though it's extremely obvious that they represent them and it's extremely easy to spot the similarities. It's probably one of the most obvious features of the story.

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The Garleans are a empire with an absolute monarch. That is their political system. Fascism is a very specific political ideology, and one that doesn't exist within the world of 14. Your post is a great example of what many other posters have highlighted. You are bringing real world feelings, thoughts and ideologies into a fantasy setting. You are also tying a character one wishes to role play to the actual person themselves.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The Garleans are a empire with an absolute monarch. That is their political system. Fascism is a very specific political ideology, and one that doesn't exist within the world of 14. Your post is a great example of what many other posters have highlighted. You are bringing real world feelings, thoughts and ideologies into a fantasy setting. You are also tying a character one wishes to role play to the actual person themselves.

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I'd point out the differences between fascism that correlates to Garlemald, especially with regards to how the Emperor frames the reasonings behind what they do, but it's become excessively apparent any words of effort are wasted on you.

As a final aside, fantasy is derived from somewhere. All human made art, stories, and so forth are derivative in nature. Fantasy does not persist in an ideological vacuum from the real world, to say so is to say stories hold no meaning.

Have a very stuck in his ways Ishgardian Elezen inquisitor-type character myself, don't play him much. Still, he views everyone that isn't an Elezen from Ishgard as inferior in every way but has a particular hate boner for Au'ra which he is still convinced are related to dragons in some way. Think Claude Frollo meets Colonel Tavington. Real nasty piece of work, definitely a very racist, judgemental, and "might makes right" sort of individual unwilling to change his beliefs and is more than willing to resort to using force against his lessers to get what he wants.

But he is an absolute work of fiction and does not in any way represent the beliefs or actual opinions of his creator. A lot of people it seems fail to draw the line between fiction and reality and drag one into the other and vice versa which is incredibly unhealthy. If these sorts of characters or any other makes someone uncomfortable, a quick message to the other stating that their uncomfortable should be enough to end the interaction.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Extreme Roleplaying sounds like a veil to be a scumbag. I mean, if you did it within a small group of likeminded people, I kinda guess whatever, still very unsettling.

If someone brought any garbage like that into a run or FC I was part of, it would be an instant report.

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Wait a report? Instead of voicing the concern with the player?

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Originally Posted by Alaray

I'd point out the differences between fascism that correlates to Garlemald, especially with regards to how the Emperor frames the reasonings behind what they do, but it's become excessively apparent any words of effort are wasted on you.

As a final aside, fantasy is derived from somewhere. All human made art, stories, and so forth are derivative in nature. Fantasy does not persist in an ideological vacuum from the real world, to say so is to say stories hold no meaning.

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They are both authoritarian, but authoritarian does not fascism make. Feelings of ethnic superiority are also not unique to fascism. Fascism is a very specific political system that was localized to a couple of regions of the world for a very brief period of time. Also you continue to prove my point by attacking the person behind the argument rather than the argument itself.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Wait a report? Instead of voicing the concern with the player?

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It isn't my job to police the player or even address it. Exception if I was an FC leader.

That is exactly why we have a report feature.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

They are both authoritarian, but authoritarian does not fascism make. Feelings of ethnic superiority are also not unique to fascism. Fascism is a very specific political system that was localized to a couple of regions of the world for a very brief period of time. Also you continue to prove my point by attacking the person behind the argument rather than the argument itself.

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Just going to say, I'm not going to point out the points that make Garlemald the textbook definition of a fascist state a second time. You honed in on one particular point out of a number, and then provide 0 clarification to whatever your definition is. I went step by step to explain my reasoning, you refuse to do so, and so I assume all you have is a vague notion and nothing of value to add. Any takes about you come from your words and your own statements -- this isn't roleplay, this is a discussion between people, and one you seem completely uninterested in despite your initial claims, which makes me feel like you are not genuine. You have not even provided an example of what you, specifically, mean when it comes to wanting to play a darker themed character -- all I have to go off of is your initial character traits listed in the first post, and then the knowledge you think the Legion's pretty cool. There's nothing of substance there, other than a few red flags and a trite and boring trope people tend to bring out of the woodwork when they think they're being smart.

There is no argument, either. Arguments tend to have points brought up in contrast to points made, not the initial argument repeated ad nauseam until the person you're responding to learns you have 0 interest in a discussion made in good faith and, as a result, grows bored of you repeating yourself and then demanding I repeat myself when you could, instead, just read a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

It's the first post my dude.

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That's not an argument, it's a whim.

Oh and I'm not your dude.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

It isn't my job to police the player or even address it. Exception if I was an FC leader.

That is exactly why we have a report feature.

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It's rather sketchy assuming it's a GM's job, either. Unless they were able to identify a violation of the TOS, and I very much doubt any will preclude people from RPing themes that exist in the setting... they're already pretty lax about far sketchier, more openly forbidden stuff, more typically known as ERP.

So other than wasting GM time, I am curious what you think you're going to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Just going to say, I'm not going to point out the points that make Garlemald the textbook definition of a fascist state a second time. You honed in on one particular point out of a number, and then provide 0 clarification to whatever your definition is. I went step by step to explain my reasoning, you refuse to do so, and so I assume all you have is a vague notion and nothing of value to add. Any takes about you come from your words and your own statements -- this isn't roleplay, this is a discussion between people, and one you seem completely uninterested in despite your initial claims, which makes me feel like you are not genuine. You have not even provided an example of what you, specifically, mean when it comes to wanting to play a darker themed character -- all I have to go off of is your initial character traits listed in the first post, and then the knowledge you think the Legion's pretty cool. There's nothing of substance there, other than a few red flags and a trite and boring trope people tend to bring out of the woodwork when they think they're being smart.

There is no argument, either. Arguments tend to have points brought up in contrast to points made, not the initial argument repeated ad nauseam until the person you're responding to learns you have 0 interest in a discussion made in good faith and, as a result, grows bored of you repeating yourself and then demanding I repeat myself when you could, instead, just read a bit better.

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Considering your points...well they have nothing to do with my original post. As for what I personally mean and want, that as well is laid out in my original post. Moral comprismised characters. Instead you wish to try and mic drop and "aktually!!!" about twentieth century political systems and seem hung up on the fact I mentioned Legion playthroughs of FNV. However, you are welcome to lecture on about how Mussolini's variant of socialism is what the Garleans actually are in a thread about people wanting to roleplay meaner characters.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Just going to say, I'm not going to point out the points that make Garlemald the textbook definition of a fascist state a second time. You honed in on one particular point out of a number, and then provide 0 clarification to whatever your definition is. I went step by step to explain my reasoning, you refuse to do so, and so I assume all you have is a vague notion and nothing of value to add. Any takes about you come from your words and your own statements -- this isn't roleplay, this is a discussion between people, and one you seem completely uninterested in despite your initial claims, which makes me feel like you are not genuine. You have not even provided an example of what you, specifically, mean when it comes to wanting to play a darker themed character -- all I have to go off of is your initial character traits listed in the first post, and then the knowledge you think the Legion's pretty cool. There's nothing of substance there, other than a few red flags and a trite and boring trope people tend to bring out of the woodwork when they think they're being smart.

There is no argument, either. Arguments tend to have points brought up in contrast to points made, not the initial argument repeated ad nauseam until the person you're responding to learns you have 0 interest in a discussion made in good faith and, as a result, grows bored of you repeating yourself and then demanding I repeat myself when you could, instead, just read a bit better.

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Judging by views offhandedly expressed by OP in other threads, they're likely more motivated by the political connotations of the issue than the roleplay ones. The pattern of arguments they're using to try to refute the garlean-fascism connection is extremely similar to the types of arguments real-world righties try to make when their beliefs are conflated with fascism. I get the feeling it's not the first time they've had this kind of argument.

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Originally Posted by Jagick

Have a very stuck in his ways Ishgardian Elezen inquisitor-type character myself, don't play him much. Still, he views everyone that isn't an Elezen from Ishgard as inferior in every way but has a particular hate boner for Au'ra which he is still convinced are related to dragons in some way. Think Claude Frollo meets Colonel Tavington. Real nasty piece of work, definitely a very racist, judgemental, and "might makes right" sort of individual unwilling to change his beliefs and is more than willing to resort to using force against his lessers to get what he wants.

But he is an absolute work of fiction and does not in any way represent the beliefs or actual opinions of his creator. A lot of people it seems fail to draw the line between fiction and reality and drag one into the other and vice versa which is incredibly unhealthy. If these sorts of characters or any other makes someone uncomfortable, a quick message to the other stating that their uncomfortable should be enough to end the interaction.

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Thank you, this is what I am talking about.