Increasing number of players using 3rd party tools

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Absolute state of why devs almost never listen

---

No idea what you're trying to say. Sorry.

recently i read at several places (even at places where i disnt expect talk about add-ons) from people asking about add ons and talking about them.... the users never really told the not-yet-users that add ons are illegal. everyone has to decide on their own if they use them or not... but it should made clear that add ons are illegal.

and... i tecently read several times about an illegal client so people dont have to log in every time... is that a thing now? being so lazy people dont even want to write two words?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asari5

recently i read at several places (even at places where i disnt expect talk about add-ons) from people asking about add ons and talking about them.... the users never really told the not-yet-users that add ons are illegal. everyone has to decide on their own if they use them or not... but it should made clear that add ons are illegal.

and... i tecently read several times about an illegal client so people dont have to log in every time... is that a thing now? being so lazy people dont even want to write two words?

---

Yoshi has said time and time again that addons are against TOS and that you could be banned for using them. But they don't ban people for using them, so that's where the "decide on your own" bit comes from. And regarding the client login thing, it has many other available features other then the auto-login, so it's just a nice side benefit really.

Everyone looking for a house is using botting tools too and BARDs is using them as well... look up the botbands for an instance.

I'm not that fussed about people using UI mods that simply change the appearance of existing information, but when they start making modifications that are providing more information then the game does normally it starts to feel a bit uncomfortable.

Granted, a lot of this stuff could be argued to be QoL that should be in the game to begin with (IE, displaying only important debuffs from other players like Trick Attack and Chain Strategem, displaying your debuffs on enemies without needing to target them for DoT management purposes, etc), but it's still an advantage.

When it comes third party program usage in general, there has been a definite uptick in that regard; partly due to the creation of various add-on platforms that make them far more accessible then they were originally as people can now easily browse/install them from an exhaustive list of different plug-ins ranging from harmless like the BRD macro player to straight-up cheating like bots for virtually every aspect of the game you can think of.

Its funny how defensive ppl always get when players legitimately are concerned about 3rd party tools, and i feel like "3rd party" is not what most players are worried about, its automated things, like gathering bots and crafting bots.

None cares if you use a shader, act or anything that gives you no feasible advantage. However, if you combine crafting and gathering bots with a crafting system that is so easy that it doesn't need any hq mats or luck anymore ... you run into a problem.

Crafted gear, food and pots are worthless ... its at times cheaper to buy them then to putting the effort in to getting the mats and making them yourself. Because why wouldn't it ... if you run a gathering bot 8h a day while you work, he will get the mats and craft the items. You have no connection to the time and effort that was required and sell it for prices normal ppl would never even think about.

Combine that with the Marketboard bot that lists items and changes prices ... how the F is a new player to compete with it unless he does nieche items such as leveling.

When you see their 1 week report you see the thousands of rmt shouters they ban, yet for bots player use ...
4 Players got a temp ban across every single data center. How they think posting that is a good idea is beyond me, zone to Limsa and you stumble over 4 bots while you enter.

This means SE has no idea what their doing about bots, the 4 that got caught were likely stupid enough to outright say that they bot.

The "well dont do it then" argument doesn't work if you get benefit from it ... and unless SE kicks PS support we will never have anything allowed like this anyway, because it breaks the balance.

Reminds me of the good ol days in FFXI in which they retroactively banned players when a exploit was found once, a small ban hammer wave would do right to wake the community. If theres no punishment for not following tos, why would you follow it ... i get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Reminds me of the good ol days in FFXI in which they retroactively banned players when a exploit was found once, a small ban hammer wave would do right to wake the community. If theres no punishment for not following tos, why would you follow it ... i get it.

---

Was it that one exploit with doing 11's Salvage missions via item dupe? I remember a banwave that hit quite a few people back in the day because of it.

I for one will not shed a tear when cheaters are banned.
Even something as small as UI mods, it's your own undoing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Its funny how defensive ppl always get when players legitimately are concerned about 3rd party tools, and i feel like "3rd party" is not what most players are worried about, its automated things, like gathering bots and crafting bots.

None cares if you use a shader, act or anything that gives you no feasible advantage. However, if you combine crafting and gathering bots with a crafting system that is so easy that it doesn't need any hq mats or luck anymore ... you run into a problem.

Crafted gear, food and pots are worthless ... its at times cheaper to buy them then to putting the effort in to getting the mats and making them yourself. Because why wouldn't it ... if you run a gathering bot 8h a day while you work, he will get the mats and craft the items. You have no connection to the time and effort that was required and sell it for prices normal ppl would never even think about.

Combine that with the Marketboard bot that lists items and changes prices ... how the F is a new player to compete with it unless he does nieche items such as leveling.

When you see their 1 week report you see the thousands of rmt shouters they ban, yet for bots player use ...
4 Players got a temp ban across every single data center. How they think posting that is a good idea is beyond me, zone to Limsa and you stumble over 4 bots while you enter.

This means SE has no idea what their doing about bots, the 4 that got caught were likely stupid enough to outright say that they bot.

The "well dont do it then" argument doesn't work if you get benefit from it ... and unless SE kicks PS support we will never have anything allowed like this anyway, because it breaks the balance.

Reminds me of the good ol days in FFXI in which they retroactively banned players when a exploit was found once, a small ban hammer wave would do right to wake the community. If theres no punishment for not following tos, why would you follow it ... i get it.

---

Because these things would also happen if they wouldn't tolerate mods, you intentionally act like people raid on Monday to Thursday then let their gather and crafting bot run from Friday to Sunday.
If SE doesn't act on gold buyers, bots and PvP cheaters than that is a whole different story. If you decide that a cleaner looking UI, Deadly Boss Mod
or some kind of QoL improvements increase your fun then this is totally fine, why bother what others do to their game. Most people enjoy this game because for once it's not a Miqote tail swinging contest and the MMO aspect is focused on a social level.

I think one thing to be aware of is setting a trend/standardisation. Wherein tools just delve more and more into QoL. This begs the question of - At which point does it become too much QoL. Will people continue to push that boundary until inevitably GMs are forced to take action, or for revisions to the ToS to happen when it isn't as passive.

If that boundary continues to get pushed further and further then it will just inevitably become a commonplace expectation, and the moment a QoL third-party tool becomes a norm expectancy then it's very unhealthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

At which point does it become too much QoL.

---

When it interferes the gameplay of other players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I think one thing to be aware of is setting a trend/standardisation. Wherein tools just delve more and more into QoL. This begs the question of - At which point does it become too much QoL. Will people continue to push that boundary until inevitably GMs are forced to take action, or for revisions to the ToS to happen when it isn't as passive.

If that boundary continues to get pushed further and further then it will just inevitably become a commonplace expectation, and the moment a QoL third-party tool becomes a norm expectancy then it's very unhealthy.

---

Mods have been pretty standard since ARR, and is only getting more normal.
It becomes to much QoL when you are affecting others game play, and gaining and advantage for yourself above other players.
ToS should not change third partys tools should be banned and ToS should remain the same. There is nothing wrong with the way SE is currently doing things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

When it interferes the gameplay of other players.

---

The hunt detecting programs spring to mind as something that's extremely disruptive but people either don't care or don't understand how it's causing problems.

It's also a good example of an app that's created an environment that practically forces people to rely on it either directly or indirectly to have a remotely fair chance in its associated gameplay system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

The hunt detecting programs spring to mind as something that's extremely disruptive but people either don't care or don't understand how it's causing problems.

It's also a good example of an app that's created an environment that practically forces people to rely on it either directly or indirectly to have a remotely fair chance in its associated gameplay system.

---

Which is an absolute lie, these detection come from people contributing to a pool the same way the as they do a manual callout in the hunt discord, it's literally just a QoL tool that just removes the annoying part of you to either constantly have to check out the hunt discord
or contribute to it by open the map, take the coords, area and instance and posting it, which btw if you don't want to use a tool is still posted in that discord.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Themarvin

Everyone looking for a house is using botting tools too and BARDs is using them as well... look up the botbands for an instance.

---

That's fine, 'house buying AFKers' will have their gil drained to 0 when someone relocates and puts a retainer on their clicker spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

That's fine, 'house buying AFKers' will have their gil drained to 0 when someone relocates and puts a retainer on their clicker spot.

---

Ironically this only affects people using the real low level programs like keyboard macros. High end bots would be able to differentiate between placard and retainer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jin-

Well WoW Mythic people who race and brag about the skills would be in total disarray without their precious cheat addons which Blizzard also allows. It's all about people being hypocrites. Same applies to any tool which gives you the notification on mechanics, no matter the game

---

Lol the WF racers learn the fights and write the addons

When I last saw yoshi discuss ACT he mentioned its functionality is the same as if you copy and pasted from the battle log to a spreadsheet so that unless you were using it to belittle other players its not likely you will be sanctioned.

So officially its not allowed but they're not looking to do anything about it as long as you don't broadcast that you're using it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Which is an absolute lie, these detection come from people contributing to a pool the same way the as they do a manual callout in the hunt discord, it's literally just a QoL tool that just removes the annoying part of you to either constantly have to check out the hunt discord
or contribute to it by open the map, take the coords, area and instance and posting it, which btw if you don't want to use a tool is still posted in that discord.

---

I'm not talking about Faloop, which is just a hunt tracker with extra bells and whistles.

There's a certain plug-in people are using that automatically detects and relays S ranks to them using information gathered via client side datamining and said information is also gathered from other users of the plug-in and bots that have a similar function built into them (Which are where the relays are usually coming from as the number of people who actively search for/spawn hunts is extremely small).

Even if you're relying on the second-hand relays it posts to certain discords there's still enough of a delay that you oft end up stuck behind several dozen people in the server/instance queues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cincierta

Was it that one exploit with doing 11's Salvage missions via item dupe? I remember a banwave that hit quite a few people back in the day because of it.

---

Yes, they did gather data for everyone who did join the item duping in salvage and threw entire communities down the cliff for taking advantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Because these things would also happen if they wouldn't tolerate mods, you intentionally act like people raid on Monday to Thursday then let their gather and crafting bot run from Friday to Sunday.

---

No, im talking about players that go to bed and continue to gather on an alt for the entire night. Or players that bot while going to work and these things happen every day, and you only need very few players doing that to interrupt the entire market. If they raid or not is not relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

If SE doesn't act on gold buyers, bots and PvP cheaters than that is a whole different story. If you decide that a cleaner looking UI, Deadly Boss Mod
or some kind of QoL improvements increase your fun then this is totally fine, why bother what others do to their game. Most people enjoy this game because for once it's not a Miqote tail swinging contest and the MMO aspect is focused on a social level.

---

QoL and advantage do not go hand in hand, i personally dont care about anything that has no effect on the game as is, Your argument is basically amounting to "ill cheat at monopoly with my friends, because we just play for fun".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I think one thing to be aware of is setting a trend/standardisation. Wherein tools just delve more and more into QoL. This begs the question of - At which point does it become too much QoL. Will people continue to push that boundary until inevitably GMs are forced to take action, or for revisions to the ToS to happen when it isn't as passive.

---

There is a chance even if its slim that eventually SE will crash down these players, at this point they don't only turn a blind eye but close both. QoL becomes a problem when it becomes automated on a level it disrupts game play of others.

And because its been thrown in here as well, other games like WoW have no playstation users which means they can embrace the pc and all its perks. So if they did allow any modifications to the game playstation users would be left behind, which creates a unfair advantage ... again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

There is a chance even if its slim that eventually SE will crash down these players, at this point they don't only turn a blind eye but close both.

---

No they wont,

SE dont even go after the premium mod creators with CnDs (sexy outfit, custom emotes , hair styles etc etc)

If SE cant be bothered to go after people that literally SELL mods of a SE IP then they wont chase after mods that add many QOL to the UI.

Get real

Let's be honest here, modifying the UI to show existing information or add texture or glamour options isnt in the same league as botting by a long shot. Theres a huge difference between cosmetic enhancements that are purely beneficial and those of malicious intent like botting and I honestly think its rather sadistic, spiteful and vindictive to hope certain people get banned for not even doing anything harmful.