Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

We'll have to agree to disagree on that then, I don't feel he tried to make himself front and centre at all, he felt organically placed and fit the tasks he was given and the interactions he made/were made to him, in fact I actually wanted more of him if the story allowed as I'm still curious to see just what kind of man he is now, just what the blending's done to him, but as he's arrived right as the plot is gearing up for Endwalker there's littler time. Oh well, perhaps in 6.1, we'll get that solo adventure we promised him.

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Hopefully he’s gone long before 6.1 so we don’t gotta be put through that agony :p

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

What serious moments has he derailed exactly?

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From the start of 5.4 with us trying to talk to Lyse and him interrupting with his fanboying and reactions to alphinaud complimenting him to 5.5 where there’s a literal apocalypse happening and he’s getting sparkly eyes from staring at estinien. Just to name a few.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

No short-term memory, huh?

And I say again, that's fine. I'm not trying to pick any fights here. Like what you like. Dislike what you dislike. But please try to be honest with yourself and others about why. I know I certainly haven't always been the most introspective person, but I've found it's never to late to learn.

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That seems to me like he’s just pointing out one of the reasons for his dislike of the character, but not the overarching problem he has with him. It’s prevalent seeing the past posts of people here that their issue isn’t even close as to how he looks but how he acts and is a character story/lore-wise.

And then Lore became Twitter. I'm sorry, Moose, Vyrerus. Your magitek discussion was much more interesting.

Yes, please. With a big label: "Fenral do not interact." I'm making things worse and I feel bad about it.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

And then Lore became Twitter.

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It's been that way for a while, really.

The entire situation would be resolved rather easily if everybody here just took the stance of it all being a matter of perspective/personal preference.

I don't particularly care who likes which character. I'm only posting here to discuss the lore as it exists, come up with theories for what may or may not happen in the future and indulge in a little appreciation for the characters that I like.

I imagine it's the same for many others, really.

As someone who neither likes nor dislikes G'raha, I'd have to say the main reason people dislike him is because they don't (or can't) appreciate his boyish charm. He's kind, earnest, and helpful, and... not everyone likes that in a character.

Plus he's been getting a lot of screentime as of late in order to establish him as a core member of the cast after spending all of Shadowbringers' MSQ as the deuteragonist, and having a character you don't like on screen is going to grate on peoples' nerves.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As someone who neither likes nor dislikes G'raha, I'd have to say the main reason people dislike him is because they don't (or can't) appreciate his boyish charm. He's kind, earnest, and helpful, and... not everyone likes that in a character.

Plus he's been getting a lot of screentime as of late in order to establish him as a core member of the cast after spending all of Shadowbringers' MSQ as the deuteragonist, and having a character you don't like on screen is going to grate on peoples' nerves.

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I imagine this plays a large role in it, while we've seen a lot of him, this isn't the same person, he is nether the boy you helped open the tower with, nor the Exarch you saved the first with, he's trying to find himself and that needs to be shown, I imagine he and Estinien will be getting a large bulk of the free screen time skewed towards our newest Dragoon as we move into Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I'd have to say the main reason people dislike him is because they don't (or can't) appreciate his boyish charm. He's kind, earnest, and helpful, and... not everyone likes that in a character.

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I worded (admittedly) it badly, but this is what I meant by "proper masculine stereotypes." He's... not properly masculine. It's not an appearance thing so much as he doesn't behave the way a grown man "should," and doesn't have "youth" as an excuse like Alphinaud. He's a character type that is very often killed in more cynical works to show the (presumed) consequences of deviating from the masculine ideal, hence my apprehension since 5.0, since FFXIV used to aspire to that kind of cynicism.

I'm not trying to single anyone out, these are common cultural biases. TV Tropes is bad for you, man.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I imagine this plays a large role in it, while we've seen a lot of him, this isn't the same person, he is nether the boy you helped open the tower with, nor the Exarch you saved the first with, he's trying to find himself and that needs to be shown, I imagine he and Estinien will be getting a large bulk of the free screen time skewed towards our newest Dragoon as we move into Endwalker.

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This may also be a way of correcting previous deaths in the story. Moenbryda? Wasn't shown enough. Haurchefant? Shown enough in events but not enough in story. Ysayle? Wasn't shown enough (though I enjoyed all the screen time she DID get). Papalymo? Wasn't shown enough. All previous deaths were of characters that didn't show up nowhere near enough in the story. If G'raha were to die at the end of 6.0, I daresay it'd be taken a lot better considering how much screen time he got before his death.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This may also be a way of correcting previous deaths in the story. Moenbryda? Wasn't shown enough. Haurchefant? Shown enough in events but not enough in story. Ysayle? Wasn't shown enough (though I enjoyed all the screen time she DID get). Papalymo? Wasn't shown enough. All previous deaths were of characters that didn't show up nowhere near enough in the story. If G'raha were to die at the end of 6.0, I daresay it'd be taken a lot better considering how much screen time he got before his death.

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No way he's dying. The Crystal Exarch sacrificing himself was hyped up throughout the Shadowbringers post patches... and then come 5.3, he just comes back with his younger body and everything is the same as ever. And he's the current writer's favorite character. Literally any other Scions has a higher chance of kicking the bucket during 6.0 than G'raha Tia.

Hmmmm... That's why it's dodgy to me, actually. It would be saying things about mortality for him to go through all that and die anyway. (Just look at the latest season of RWBY...)

I suppose our alternative tragedy is for Fordola to get killed by Zenos, and then have Arenvald succumb to his wounds. Talk about a senseless sacrifice. Not sure if that would be more or less cynical. Maybe about even.

All this talk of "nontraditional" this and "boyish" that being the reasons for folks disliking the Exarch/G'raha, and here I am looking at his survival plan like it's an episode of The Twilight Zone.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This may also be a way of correcting previous deaths in the story. Moenbryda? Wasn't shown enough. Haurchefant? Shown enough in events but not enough in story. Ysayle? Wasn't shown enough (though I enjoyed all the screen time she DID get). Papalymo? Wasn't shown enough. All previous deaths were of characters that didn't show up nowhere near enough in the story. If G'raha were to die at the end of 6.0, I daresay it'd be taken a lot better considering how much screen time he got before his death.

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Unfortunately jokes aside, they aren’t going to kill him off anytime soon. The community loves him so much they had to write a second ending for 5.3 for him to survive just to make them happy :p

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I think the whole "nobody saw it happen" bit is meant to imply that there was no crash. Rather, the Puppets' Bunker was underneath the mountain the entire time. Even so, those sort of circumstances would be difficult to understand too. Really, it doesn't make sense either way.

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If you look at it, there even are skid marks where ship sheared off the mountain so there was a crash and since there was a mountain prior to Bunker it means it happened in current time.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Perhaps it happened on the day of the Flood, when eyes were elsewhere, and the barriers between planes of existence were at their thinnest.

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Perhaps the factory was built back then but the bunker definitely does not look like it was there for 100 years.

On the other note, the tower was visible from Eulmore outskirts (I checked it on my alt) yet no one noticed it...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...023041_813.png

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Originally Posted by Erendis

If you look at it

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I'm not sure about these screenshots. I didn't really check stuff from outside of the instances before I did anything, but I'd chock it up to the world map effect. You know, like in old games where when you're walking around the world map, your character is represented as being as large as a town square. You go in the town, and, oh, look, they aren't the size of several buildings.

It's kind of like how we can see the Paglth'an tower from Southern Thanalan, and we can clearly see there are no grassland fields between it and the Sagoli Desert. Yet in the dungeon there are more mountains, tunnel works, elevation differences, and the entire amber field.

As for the fires burning. How long or soon they started burning is irrelevant. A lot of things in the game are just to add to scenery. There have been NPCs doing push ups in Whitebrim Front for 8 years real time (so 70080 days in actual game time passing, 192 years if XIV's Source has the same orbit length as Earth). They never stop. Those fires won't stop either. The torches on walls in Little Ala Mhigo never go out, and are never replaced.

It's not something we can use as a launch point for scenario timing.

If you cared to look then. Screenshots do not show it properly. It reminds me of Omega crash site somewhat. Except here it did not fall straight down but sideways.

Of course there could be another theory like

A mountain giant bit it off for a snack and those are his teeth marks...

And even if it is just a scenery it is still unexplained why did the mountain disappear. And a freshly crashed ship thingy which no one noticed or heard.

I mean, the mountain is brought up in the quest, in fact it's pointed out and spoken about by Anogg. 2P uses her device, everything rumbles and shakes, you run outside, village under attack, you and the twins run through the bombardment, Anogg: "The mountain! What happened to the mountain?!" *pans to wide shot of the missing mountain covering in smoke* Later as you unlock the punker at the end of the scene it pans to a much high up shot showing part of the bunking beeking out from the crater of the mountain remains.
So, either the mountain exploded, the white androids blew it open in their attack or it crashed, though given we heard and felt constant rumbling and crashing as opposed to one massive impact I'm leaning towards them having blown it open with their flight suites. However everyone, including the PC most assuredly noticed, and heard it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As someone who neither likes nor dislikes G'raha, I'd have to say the main reason people dislike him is because they don't (or can't) appreciate his boyish charm. He's kind, earnest, and helpful, and... not everyone likes that in a character.

Plus he's been getting a lot of screentime as of late in order to establish him as a core member of the cast after spending all of Shadowbringers' MSQ as the deuteragonist, and having a character you don't like on screen is going to grate on peoples' nerves.

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I feel his behavior is beyond the kind, earnest and helpful and comes off as the creepy personality who is only helpful to get closer to the thing he wants. The issue isn't a matter of opinions being misinterpreted some actually see his behavior as wholly inappropriate and intrusive. After the scene in the cave in Azys Lla has shown he has no regard for people beyond his own needs and wants. It also does not reflect the character portrayed as the Crystal Exarch, we got a bait and switch predator. If he isn't reigned in he is going to ruin the story.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I feel his behavior is beyond the kind, earnest and helpful and comes off as the creepy personality who is only helpful to get closer to the thing he wants. The issue isn't a matter of opinions being misinterpreted some actually see his behavior as wholly inappropriate and intrusive. After the scene in the cave in Azys Lla has shown he has no regard for people beyond his own needs and wants. It also does not reflect the character portrayed as the Crystal Exarch, we got a bait and switch predator. If he isn't reigned in he is going to ruin the story.

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I mean, while some players may not like his conduct, no one in the narrative has any issues with him, no more so than poking fun at his expense, like Thancred's "conquests" Alph's inability to not be in charge or Alisase's act first, think later mentality. As for the cave scene, I'm not sure what you mean, was it his little "show" in recreating our first meeting? Because if so, it's hardly the first time a character has taken some time while we're on the clock, cleaning Y'shtola's room, baking bread and entertaining children come to mind off the top of my head, so I'll give him his 60 seconds. If it was him thanking us for brining him, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it wasn't just like he's tagging along, he was useful on the venture given his knowledge and blood so I'm really unsure what he did wrong there.

As for not being the Exarch, that's the point, because he isn't, the man himself, Urianger and Beq Lugg all said they had no idea what would happen to him when he merged with his younger self, he isn't the Exarch anymore, nor is he the young Graha, he's a mixture of the both and he's trying to find his feet as whoever that is and they said this several times before and after it happened so not sure where the "bait and switch" happened.

To your "predator" point... not even sure where to begin with this one, him having a huge admiration for the PC hardly makes him a predator he's also done a horrid job of getting near us given two of his three plans ended in his own death and he got lucky that he in fact not only didn't die but made it back to the source in possession of his time in the prevented timeline and first, he did not ask for a spot on the team, he was offered one by everyone else and so far he's pulled his weight when out on missions with us, he's never just "been there" for the sake of it. He also makes no effort to stick with us once we out in the field, either suggesting we split up depending on who can do what best or if it's suggested by someone else agreeing with zero complaints.
Finally Graha is probably the last character who could be described as having "no regard for people beyond his own needs and wants" Ignoring all he did as the Exarch, all he's done since getting to the Source is help, asking how he can contribute.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

we got a bait and switch predator.

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I . . . just . . . what?

. . . I guess you really must have hated Haurchefant.

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Originally Posted by Naria

I . . . just . . . what?

. . . I guess you really must have hated Haurchefant.

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Or Alisaie, or Aymeric and probably many more since quite a few NPCs seems to really love us.
I really like Graha and I give him these moments but I also hope that he gets a bit less starstruck over the time. Just like I really like Alisaie but got very annoyed with her constant jealousy on the first.

I personally like the Sheryl and Ranka dynamic that G'raha and Alisaie have fallen into. They're starting to rely on each other more than on their mutual crush, and it's a pretty big deal for both of them. Alisaie's always been the type to do things on her own, and G'raha's fallback solution is always: "I'll just kill myself and stop being a burden."

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I mean, while some players may not like his conduct, no one in the narrative has any issues with him, no more so than poking fun at his expense, like Thancred's "conquests" Alph's inability to not be in charge or Alisase's act first, think later mentality.

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I mean, of course no one in the narrative has any issues with him. He’s literally written to be a “perfect cute adorable character”. Why would they write for the npcs to hate him lol. Players are the ones who matter and if a lot of them are agreeing on him being way to overwhelming and annoying then there’s a problem. He’s being written almost as a Mary Sue, someone who can do no wrong, especially in the eyes of the community, which makes sense given he’s their new haurchefant who they flounder over.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Or Alisaie, or Aymeric and probably many more since quite a few NPCs seems to really love us.
I really like Graha and I give him these moments but I also hope that he gets a bit less starstruck over the time. Just like I really like Alisaie but got very annoyed with her constant jealousy on the first.

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Not who you’re talking to but i also dislike those characters for pretty much the same reasons. Alisaie annoyed me to no end on the First with her constant outbursts and Aymeric just never sat well with me. It honestly wouldn’t be so bad if we at least had a dialogue option to shut them down so we never have to see it again but unfortunately we don’t so we just have to endure it.

Wow I would have never thought of G'raha as a Mary Sue seeing as how the PC has more Characteristics of the Quintessential Mary Sue pretty much on damn near the same par as Rey from the Star Wars Trilogy Sequels....

I think Kesey makes a fair point. G'raha abandoned the people in the alternate timeline and parted ways with those on the First just so he could spend time with the Warrior of Darkness and go off on an adventure. Which is really strange, since we already had no shortage of companions who could fulfill that role if and when we had some breathing room in the story. Remember Skalla? When Alphinaud and Arenvald went off on an adventure together? That was fun!

I can't help but find the timing of Arenvald's return odd, though. The same character who went on an adventure last just so happens to be on the chopping block. He's either going to die or be out of commission due to injuries for a while. How convenient, eh?

Intentionally or not, G'raha just comes off as a creepy narcissist who, much like Zenos, obsesses over the Warrior of Darkness. Some people are fine with that, others aren't - including myself. It remains to be seen if he's brought to heel.

Haurchefant was outright creepy in the Japanese version of the game. In the English version, he's toned down - but it's still clear that to some degree, his decision to sacrifice himself for the Warrior of Darkness was brought about due to his crush rather than purely noble factors. Furthermore, the friendship that existed between them lasted...a few weeks or months given how tight the game's timeline happens to be.

Alisae has what is meant to be an innocent crush on the Warrior of Darkness. I guess that's fine, so long as it isn't returned given that she's underage.

Aymeric...gradually morphed into Haurchefant 2.0, no doubt to appease his fans somewhat. I'm indifferent to him, personally. The Warrior of Darkness did save Ishgard, though I don't care much for hero worship myself.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

G'raha abandoned the people in the alternate timeline and parted ways with those on the First just so he could spend time with the Warrior of Darkness and go off on an adventure.

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Not the first time people have tried to hold this against G'raha, and I'm sorry, but that's just factually incorrect. An Unpromised Tomorrow

If you need in-game sources, I recommend rereading the journal entries from the Twinning, and the cutscenes from "By the Time You Hear This." They asked him. Rather, the latter implies he wasn't really left much of a choice in the matter.

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Originally Posted by Biggs the Third

(-???-)<bzzzt> ...has come to carry out our plan. This will be my last recording.
(-???-)With the tower activated and the temporal displacement apparatus online, all that remains is to throw the switch. And pray.
(-???-)I'm sorry, I truly am. I wish there was another way.
(-???-)But you are our best chance of success. Our only hope. Your gift will allow you to become one with the tower and survive the journey through time and space. Were our technology as advanced as that of the Allagans, perhaps we could've gone with you.
(-???-)Alas, it was not to be. But when you are finally reunited, all of the hardship, all of the sacrifice will've been worth it, I'm sure.
(-???-)Just promise me you'll spare a thought for those you leave behind. And we'll be thinking of you, too, for as long as this world lasts, though I fear it will not be for much longer.
(-???-)This is Biggs, third of his name, eighteenth president of Garlond Ironworks, signing off. May the Twelve be at your side, G'raha Tia. <bzzzt>

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It's fine to dislike who you dislike, but don't spread misinformation to try and justify your own biases. It's not productive. We deal in facts here, with a side of educated guesswork.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think Kesey makes a fair point. G'raha abandoned the people in the alternate timeline and parted ways with those on the First just so he could spend time with the Warrior of Darkness and go off on an adventure. Which is really strange, since we already had no shortage of companions who could fulfill that role if and when we had some breathing room in the story. Remember Skalla? When Alphinaud and Arenvald went off on an adventure together? That was fun!

I can't help but find the timing of Arenvald's return odd, though. The same character who went on an adventure last just so happens to be on the chopping block. He's either going to die or be out of commission due to injuries for a while. How convenient, eh?

Intentionally or not, G'raha just comes off as a creepy narcissist who, much like Zenos, obsesses over the Warrior of Darkness. Some people are fine with that, others aren't - including myself. It remains to be seen if he's brought to heel.

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I... didn't see him as abandoning them... at all. The whole point is he was the only person who could control the Crystal Tower, and the CT was the centerpiece of their plan. By leaving his timeline he was saving the past (and they only thought theoretically that it would create an alternate timeline, they legitimately didn't know) as a last-ditch attempt to avert a Calamity; and the plan involved his DEATH, even the original plan. As for leaving the people of the First: he was dying anyway, and while he was ready to die on the First, that whole plotline was about finding a way to return the SCIONS home, and G'raha's survival was purely theoretical. It was either die on the First, or take a gamble that his past and future selves would merge instead of create a time paradox and blink themselves out of existence, or one overtake the other.

I don't see him as a creepy narcissist AT ALL. In fact, with Krile mentioning how many of his plans, even back in Sharlayan, had him sacrifice himself in one way or another, it's the most opposite of narcissist one can get. The boy just has Chronic Hero Syndrome and Hero Worships actual Heroes, that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Wow I would have never thought of G'raha as a Mary Sue seeing as how the PC has more Characteristics of the Quintessential Mary Sue pretty much on damn near the same par as Rey from the Star Wars Trilogy Sequels....

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I agree, but Graha is right up there with the Pc honestly. The amount of plot armor and plot holes created to keep him around and relevant are astronomical.He’s starting to give yshtola a run for her money.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

-snip-

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You're free to read into it as you like, as I am. Putting aside the simple fact that I feel that the whole alternate timeline plot device was incredibly contrived to begin with, G'raha could have easily returned to watch over the inhabitants of the alternate timeline just as he could have stayed to watch over the inhabitants of the First. He could've sated his thirst for adventure in either case. It's odd to me that he apparently needs to do it with the Warrior of Darkness in particular, seemingly at any cost.

Personally I'm inclined to believe that he was going to die at the end of 5.3 but the writers were scared of the potential backlash and instead kept him around. They did say they had two endings planned, after all.

I also may be misinterpreting your intent, but did you not also recently state that you were going to avoid weighing in on G'raha related discussions? More specifically, here:

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Yes, please. With a big label: "Fenral do not interact." I'm making things worse and I feel bad about it.

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Now, I'm not saying that you should resort to that. Though if you do have a problem, specifically, with me on an individual basis then you're more than welcome to make a character on Cerberus sometime and get in touch so that we can potentially smooth things out. Or, I suppose, we could simply agree to disagree on our personal interpretations of subjective plot elements/character motivations.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I... didn't see him as abandoning them... at all. The whole point is he was the only person who could control the Crystal Tower, and the CT was the centerpiece of their plan. By leaving his timeline he was saving the past (and they only thought theoretically that it would create an alternate timeline, they legitimately didn't know) as a last-ditch attempt to avert a Calamity; and the plan involved his DEATH, even the original plan.

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Correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t that something people use against the ascians/the ancients? Trying to fix the past and bring back their loved ones instead of just living in the present? The game pushes the notion of forget the past and instead try to strive toward a better tomorrow, so shouldn’t have Graha just tried to work in that current timeline to live for a better tomorrow instead of changing the past and the timeline? Just going based off what kind of message they’ve been pushing this expansion with the future, i find it odd it’s seen as a heroic thing when he does it but in the antagonists case it’s bad.In the short story they even say that some people disagreed with Cid’s plan because he was forsaking them, and he can’t even deny that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t that something people use against the ascians/the ancients? Trying to fix the past and bring back their loved ones instead of just living in the present? The game pushes the notion of forget the past and instead try to strive toward a better tomorrow, so shouldn’t have Graha just tried to work in that current timeline to live for a better tomorrow instead of changing the past and the timeline? Just going based off what kind of message they’ve been pushing this expansion with the future, i find it odd it’s seen as a heroic thing when he does it but in the antagonists case it’s bad.In the short story they even say that some people disagreed with Cid’s plan because he was forsaking them, and he can’t even deny that.

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I mean, it's... very different. The Ascians' plan involves literal genocide to bring back people who were sacrificed, making a horrible cycle of sacrifices over and over to retain something that is lost. The "Ironworks of the Future"'s plan involves going back in time and preventing the Calamity from happening in the first place, making a better Future. It's even mentioned IN that side-story, once G'raha is sent to the past, that the leader wonders (too late, he thinks) if they'll be erased from existence if G'raha suceeded (will succeed, Time Travel Tense Problem). He refuses to believe that G'raha failed, so he concludes they must have created an alternate timeline and resolves to do the best with the Present they got.

Even if, in the discussions of the theory in Time Travel, G'raha's involvement would have deleted POSSIBLE lives (not existing ones, like the Ascians), they would have saved infinitely more by averting a Calamity in the first place.

Basically, the Ascians are "Sacrifice the Present and live in the Past forever because 12 people don't like the Present", the Ironworks' is "Go back to the Past and Give those people a fighting chance"

EDIT: I had to look it up because your last line rang really weird for me, as I didn't remember any opposition in G'raha's short story we were talking about. That part is not from "An Unpromised Tomorrow", which features G'raha Tia; but from "A World Forsaken" which is from Omega's PoV about Cid (and Nero). Yes, a majority of people disagreed with Cid's plan; yet Omega actually puts it in a non-heroic light.

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Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

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During this period, one loyal scholar noted that while preventing the disaster may not solve all of the problems that had afflicted the world of the past, the one dubbed the “Warrior of Light” would still be alive. The various members of the team each had their own personal connection with the deceased, and the notion of creating an alternative past in which their hero survived the Calamity met with unanimous approval.

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So if we're only going on G'raha's character (which has been the discussion): he's basically woken up by the 200th president of Garlond Ironworks, begged for his help, and has his Heroic side poked by the people who wake him going "Help us, G'raha Tia, you're our only hope." Which in THAT side-story is consistent with his fanboy characterization of "Everyone around me is a hero! I wanna be one, too! And I'll get to meet the Greatest Hero of The Time, again, too!" which, such WoL worship isn't at all uncommon considering the UNANIMOUS APPROVAL for saving the WoL.

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In addition, by presenting their plan as an attempt to save the Warrior of Light rather than a bid to rewrite history, they were able to gain the support from survivors of many different species and subgroups. Representatives from various settlements came to donate resources and foodstuffs to Garlond Ironworks, despite possessing barely enough to sustain themselves. Many of them were also acquainted with the Warrior of Light, some even claiming to have been beneficiaries of the late hero’s acts of philanthropy.

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Funny thing about G'raha Tia is, for all the accusations of trying to get close to us and only caring about being by the hero's side, he got there through no means of his own, every plan, every goal, everything he tried to do from the moment he work up, put himself in direct opposition of "Get to my WoL and be by their side who cares about others!" The man has been shot, stabbed, exhausted his aether several times, tried to heroically kill himself several times, become the firsts most expensive crystal statue and even when by dumb luck he made it back to the Source, alive and in possession of his memories of the first and 8th timeline, all that afforded him was being on the same world as us. He didn't ask to be a Scion, he was invited and even then had to be browbeaten into taking the position. Yet after all he's done, the man still doesn't even think he's good enough, when you climb the tower in 5.3 he proclaims that he's "no warrior" but can "hold his own" and even as the Exarch he just hid behind his cowl trying to think of what a "real" hero would do and act accordingly, even once back on the source he continues using magic even without the tower just so he can be of better use, the mans kind of the definition of selfless.
He puts it best. "Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all."

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I mean, it's... very different. The Ascians' plan involves literal genocide to bring back people who were sacrificed, making a horrible cycle of sacrifices over and over to retain something that is lost. The "Ironworks of the Future"'s plan involves going back in time and preventing the Calamity from happening in the first place, making a better Future. It's even mentioned IN that side-story, once G'raha is sent to the past, that the leader wonders (too late, he thinks) if they'll be erased from existence if G'raha suceeded (will succeed, Time Travel Tense Problem). He refuses to believe that G'raha failed, so he concludes they must have created an alternate timeline and resolves to do the best with the Present they got.

Even if, in the discussions of the theory in Time Travel, G'raha's involvement would have deleted POSSIBLE lives (not existing ones, like the Ascians), they would have saved infinitely more by averting a Calamity in the first place.

Basically, the Ascians are "Sacrifice the Present and live in the Past forever because 12 people don't like the Present", the Ironworks' is "Go back to the Past and Give those people a fighting chance".

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Except, it’s not just that they don’t like the present. The sundering made the world unstable. Not only that but in regards to your genocide comment.It wouldn’t be a cycle of sacrifices. It would be one set of sacrifices to rejoin the worlds and bring back their loved ones. Also in regards to saving lives, that’s something the rejoinings would do in the long run anyways. Comparing how many lives are lost due to the sundering and mortal bodies dying off from illness and age, whereas the ancients lived far far longer and didn’t seem to be affected by illness, it would outweigh the loss eventually than just letting the cycle of the death caused from the sundering continue. It would be a better future.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

-snip-

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He's practically the poster boy for Impostor Syndrome. I can't help but relate.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except, it’s not just that they don’t like the present. The sundering made the world unstable. Not only that but in regards to your genocide comment.It wouldn’t be a cycle of sacrifices. It would be one set of sacrifices to rejoin the worlds and bring back their loved ones. Also in regards to saving lives, that’s something the rejoinings would do in the long run anyways. Comparing how many lives are lost due to the sundering and mortal bodies dying off from illness and age, whereas the ancients lived far far longer and didn’t seem to be affected by illness, it would outweigh the loss eventually than just letting the cycle of the death caused from the sundering continue. It would be a better future.

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I'll put it in the simplest terms possible

"How many people will your plan kill?"
Ascians: "All of them? That's kind of the point. I mean, we don't even really consider them people."
Ironworks: "I mean, ideally? None. In fact, given that the plan is saving everyone, the only true 'casualties' would be theoretically new souls born after the Calamity in case we change the Past and that eliminates the Future." (Which is a time paradox and I'm glad they went the "diverging timeline" route instead).

The short story you yourself mentioned deals about how Cid's plan started as: "Go back in time and prevent the Calamity", which made most people peace out. When the plan changed to "Go back in time and save the WoL" literally everyone rushed in to help. The Namazu, the Sky Pirates, the Four Lords, friggin' Hraesvelgr swoops in to help while being all tsundere about it. (Fun thing: Given that Seigetsu the Enlightened claims the TRUE timeline is the one where the WoL lives, it gives an extra incentive to the Ironworks' plan).

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“The world was never in such a ruinous state in the visions sent to me by the Big One, no, no. Seigetsu the Enlightened said that the future I witnessed was part of another history, a different chain of events with no Eighth Umbral Calamity at all! Whatever that means...”

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(Ok, not TRUE timeline, necessarily, but certainly A timeline where the WoL survives and the world is saved.)

Also, uhhh... what? with the "Sundering made the world unstable" thing... because... uh... the thing was "End Days made the world unstable, Convocation creates Zodiark by sacrificing half their people. Convocation decides they will sacrifice all the newborn life to Zodiark. Another Faction doesn't like that plan and creates Hydaelin. SOMETHING happens and then Hydaelin Sunders Zodiark and the world (we don't know if it was willingly or accidentally), Ascians plan to destroy each one of those worlds to bring back Zodiark AND THEN go back to original plan of killing everyone to bring back the Ancients."

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Funny thing about G'raha Tia is, for all the accusations of trying to get close to us and only caring about being by the hero's side, he got there through no means of his own, every plan, every goal, everything he tried to do from the moment he work up, put himself in direct opposition of "Get to my WoL and be by their side who cares about others!" The man has been shot, stabbed, exhausted his aether several times, tried to heroically kill himself several times, become the firsts most expensive crystal statue and even when by dumb luck he made it back to the Source, alive and in possession of his memories of the first and 8th timeline, all that afforded him was being on the same world as us. He didn't ask to be a Scion, he was invited and even then had to be browbeaten into taking the position. Yet after all he's done, the man still doesn't even think he's good enough, when you climb the tower in 5.3 he proclaims that he's "no warrior" but can "hold his own" and even as the Exarch he just hid behind his cowl trying to think of what a "real" hero would do and act accordingly, even once back on the source he continues using magic even without the tower just so he can be of better use, the mans kind of the definition of selfless.
He puts it best. "Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all."

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Honestly, i could get behind this 100% if it wasn’t for the fact his entire arc is build around plot armor and plot holes(i know i’m repeating myself) but in a story with very specific fluidity, having many moments like that centered around one character is just jarring to me. If they had made it where he didn’t have the plot armor he does and he didn’t cause so many plot holes, i’d be a bit more understanding. But the truth is he feels like the very epitome of catering to the community and giving them what they want without taking the writing into consideration. That’s my main problem with him.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I'll put it in the simplest terms possible

"How many people will your plan kill?"
Ascians: "All of them? That's kind of the point. I mean, we don't even really consider them people."
Ironworks: "I mean, ideally? None. In fact, given that the plan is saving everyone, the only true 'casualties' would be theoretically new souls born after the Calamity in case we change the Past and that eliminates the Future." (Which is a time paradox and I'm glad they went the "diverging timeline" route instead).

The short story you yourself mentioned deals about how Cid's plan started as: "Go back in time and prevent the Calamity", which made most people peace out. When the plan changed to "Go back in time and save the WoL" literally everyone rushed in to help. The Namazu, the Sky Pirates, the Four Lords, friggin' Hraesvelgr swoops in to help while being all tsundere about it. (Fun thing: Given that Seigetsu the Enlightened claims the TRUE timeline is the one where the WoL lives, it gives an extra incentive to the Ironworks' plan).


(Ok, not TRUE timeline, necessarily, but certainly A timeline where the WoL survives and the world is saved.)

Also, uhhh... what? with the "Sundering made the world unstable" thing... because... uh... the thing was "End Days made the world unstable, Convocation creates Zodiark by sacrificing half their people. Convocation decides they will sacrifice all the newborn life to Zodiark. Another Faction doesn't like that plan and creates Hydaelin. SOMETHING happens and then Hydaelin Sunders Zodiark and the world (we don't know if it was willingly or accidentally), Ascians plan to destroy each one of those worlds to bring back Zodiark AND THEN go back to original plan of killing everyone to bring back the Ancients."

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The sundering did make the world unstable, the lore devs themselves have stated that in an interview. They paint it and the sundering as very bad things specifically. Again though, yes they decided to go save the wol by meddling with the past without knowing if they’re all going to get erased or not or what any of the repercussions are. Yet they then push the message of people shouldn’t mess with the past and should instead work with what they have. So it kind of contradicts itself in the grand scheme of thingsThe diverging timeline is honestly just plot convenience but i digress.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The sundering did make the world unstable, the lore devs themselves have stated that in an interview.

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It's been posted a fair few times around these parts. I'm quite surprised it doesn't come up more often as a discussion point!

At any rate, here it is in all it's wondrously nuanced glory:

https://i.imgur.com/hIgX3IX.png

Once again, this is all just a matter of perspective.