Revelations from Patch 5.3

All that stuff about Lahabrea is why I wish the developers had taken a mulligan on him instead of committing so heavily to him being gone. Speaking of which, how many of the Ascians are actually left by now?

By my reckoning it's three, but I'm not entirely sure on that count.

Nabriales is the first to die on screen, with Emmerololth being revealed to have died during the disappearance of the Isle of Val once the Eureka storyline was underway. The latter, from what I've heard, resulted in a minor plot hole in that the dead Ascian made an appearance after the disappearance of the Isle of Val. This could be explained away by the position being refilled, but we've not seen them since and none of the other positions have been refilled (as far as we know).

Then there's Igeyorhm and Lahabrea, followed by Mitron and Loghrif off-screen on the First. Gaius is revealed to have killed two offscreen as well once he reappears in Stormblood, judging by his collection. Then we kill Emet-Selch and, finally, Elidibus.

This leaves Fandaniel, and any two of the following: Pashtarot, Altima, Halmarut, and Deudalaphon. My money is on Pashtarot and Altima being the survivors.

Honestly I wouldn't count most of those. On-screen deaths or nothing else. And even that may not be true with the shoebill theory floating around. Given we know it takes a lot of effort to kill off the red masks most of those probably wouldn't have worked anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

All that stuff about Lahabrea is why I wish the developers had taken a mulligan on him instead of committing so heavily to him being gone. Speaking of which, how many of the Ascians are actually left by now?

By my reckoning it's three, but I'm not entirely sure on that count.

Nabriales is the first to die on screen, with Emmerololth being revealed to have died during the disappearance of the Isle of Val once the Eureka storyline was underway. The latter, from what I've heard, resulted in a minor plot hole in that the dead Ascian made an appearance after the disappearance of the Isle of Val. This could be explained away by the position being refilled, but we've not seen them since and none of the other positions have been refilled (as far as we know).

Then there's Igeyorhm and Lahabrea, followed by Mitron and Loghrif off-screen on the First. Gaius is revealed to have killed two offscreen as well once he reappears in Stormblood, judging by his collection. Then we kill Emet-Selch and, finally, Elidibus.

This leaves Fandaniel, and any two of the following: Pashtarot, Altima, Halmarut, and Deudalaphon. My money is on Pashtarot and Altima being the survivors.

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Moose did mention this in the OP, too: "the Ascian Overlord math in cutscenes has to be in TATTERS." And I totally agree, because of everything mentioned there and here.

Also Nabriales was supposed to be the first to die a True Death (which in the sundered Ascians' case, probably means "we have to take the trouble to raise another shard"), given that was apparently the "first time" it happened according to Elidibus in 2.5, and a serious point of consideration to be careful of mortals. Which loses a lot of its impact if Emmerololth was the first instead, and got another shard raised up; Nabriales's death would then be "yet another" Ascian Overlord slain, rather than "the first".

The writing could be twisted to speculate that maybe Nabriales had used up all his shard-lives and now there is none left of the original Nabriales, but that has no supporting evidence other than "it helps make the other contradictions come a little closer to making sense".

So I do agree that it's all the result of an attempt to tell a long overarching story that ran into the problems of real life and scheduling changing too many details.

Oh, jeez, I just went and read that bit in the OP.

I didn't even realize there was an erroneous headcount—or rather, that there were more red masks from the start and that the current headcount of 13 was a retcon. And even with that retcon, given how many of named Ascians died off screen, it seems to me that they greatly overestimated how much space they'd have to write such a large organization.

It actually reminds me a bit of Organization XIII from Kingdom Hearts—which had a similar problem, iirc.

all I want is an explanation for Lahabrea and Elidibus being the only unsundered Ascians

You mean Emet, Elidibus and Lahabrea.

Elidibus was explained by him becoming a primal..

Emet can be explained as Hades and from his Tales from the Shadow, being close to the life stream...(complete speculation on my part) the best I can guess with Lahabrea is mad scientist. (Again lightning flashes and he goes all Dr Frankenstein on us)

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You mean Emet, Elidibus and Lahabrea.

Elidibus was explained by him becoming a primal..

Emet can be explained as Hades and from his Tales from the Shadow, being close to the life stream...(compeltely speculation) the best I can guess with Lahabrea is mad scientist. (Again lightning flashes and he goes all Dr Frankenstein on us)

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but Elidibus

did not become a primal. the one we knew since 2.1 IS a primal. He is no real Ascian. the original one was sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning. it is questionable if "our" Elidibus ever witnessed Zodiark in action.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

but Elidibus

did not become a primal. the one we knew since 2.1 IS a primal. He is no real Ascian. the original one was sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning. it is questionable if "our" Elidibus ever witnessed Zodiark in action.

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In the English version of of the cutscene in amaurot

Y'shtola clearly states that she knows he sacrificed himself to become the heart of Zodiak but and I quote, "How you became separated from Him isn't clear. But if you are a fragment of His being, it stands to reason that the world's salvation drives you." And he acknowledges it.

Meaning

he wasn't just created from nothing but was created as himself but in a primal form and seeing as how he has the original memories Elidibus as well. Granted those memories have been eroding over time due to him trying to fulfill his objective as a primal but is most likely still Elidibus the true one or a small part. However, they others still considered him unsundered most likely as they did not realize exactly what happened to him if he can even be considered aundered due to being said primal.

My take away about the Nier Raids is that Yoko Taro is basically the Ikuhara Kunihiko of video games. I did my research, and fond that pretty much sums him up, except his works aren't quite as gay as Ikuhara's. So I'll probably like them.

That being said. it's just there. No real connection to the world of the First. Yet. I'm hoping the final raid will tell us why the Androids are hanging out on the first.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Haurchefant came back

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While it's true that seemingly the souls of Haurchefant and Ysayle came back to help the WoL and Alphinaud(not Aymeric, he was a witness not a participant) pull the eyes out of Estinien, that's something I chock up to the writers wanting a symmetrical capstone moment, rather than adhering strictly to the in world soul lore, which is already wishy-washy at best. Up to that point we're already shown that despite our first blade of aether not killing Lahabrea, merely banishing him from his host body, that we could use something very much like it to straight up kill an Ascian, and we do kill one when we, with the aid of Moenbryda, kill Nabriales.

The reason Ser Zephirin uses a javelin of light in his attempt to kill the WoL, which Haurchefant thwarts, is to put us down, since the WoL is effectively immortal unless their body is completely destroyed due to The Echo. I guess we could say the writers have never 100% decided whether or not it means soul death, but I'd always considered the Ascian soul destruction context to mean that when blades of light are in play, souls die.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

You need a huge amount of aether to pull off killing the soul.

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Yeah, and it's been a theme of every MSQ except for Stormblood's. In ARR it's gathering the Crystals of Light, and then later using an aetheric siphon/Tupsimati to do the same thing. In Heavensward it's done again with an eye of Nidhogg. Twice. The sheer amount of aether is never actually specified, and in the earlier showings a sunder Ascian took the same method as an unsundered one, though Lahabrea's soul was directly absorbed into Thordan. For Emet-selch we got a stakes raised version of what's been the case several times before, with yet another completely different happenstance for the death of his soul, being he had a hole punched through it, rather than total oblivion/absorption. Ser Zephirin throws a javelin of pure aether, and it kills Haurchefant, body and soul. Him showing up in the Nidhogg death scene is fan service, imo.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Ascians are immortal because they've already "died".

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This is not the case. Ascians are immortal because that is a trait of beings who have perfected control over The Echo. See Zenos, the Sahagin Elder, the WoDs in HW, and even the player controlled WoL. They only need Crystals of Darkness(or Light) to retreat to the rift, or another body to possess, prior to the Blessing of Light being sealed, as demonstrated by Nabriales. It's one of those old plot points that was hastily done away with, and sort of never referenced ever again.

As for a line of dialogue that tells us that their souls are destroyed, it comes from Urianger, the second time the scions convene after defeating Iceheart as Shiva. The line is, "'Tis our belief that an Ascian soul may be permanently undone if smitten by a sufficiently concentrated burst of pure aether."

As for Elidibus

The Exarch first hit him with that huge wave of aether, eroding his soul down to its constituent aether, which is then absorbed by the tower. He is permanently gone, because his soul was undone first, and then absorbed, much like Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

In the English version of of the cutscene in amaurot

Y'shtola clearly states that she knows he sacrificed himself to become the heart of Zodiak but and I quote, "How you became separated from Him isn't clear. But if you are a fragment of His being, it stands to reason that the world's salvation drives you." And he acknowledges it.

Meaning

he wasn't just created from nothing but was created as himself but in a primal form and seeing as how he has the original memories Elidibus as well. Granted those memories have been eroding over time due to him trying to fulfill his objective as a primal but is most likely still Elidibus the true one or a small part. However, they others still considered him unsundered most likely as they did not realize exactly what happened to him if he can even be considered aundered due to being said primal.

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doesn't really change my initial question why exactly the other 2 were unsundered. especially Lahabrea. I think Emet mentioned he (Lahabrea) wasn't always that "crazy". his body hopping basically made him like this.

but I feel we'll never get answers to this

Puppets Bunker: no revelations that interested me here. The only thing I cared about was our getting our hands on an explanation—or even a hint at an explanation—for how & why the FF and NieR worlds have collided. I'm beginning to suspect that the answer runs no deeper than 'cross-promotion.' At least we got to learn more about the endlessly-irritating dwarves, though.

They haven't explained how the Unsundered Ascians remained that way after Hydaelyn sundered the world. We may get answers to it someday, we may not. Basically the real answer is, "Because the scriptwriter said so." It's just the way things happened.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Emphasis mine since, you know I'm female myself and have a female avatar. While I'm sure there's going to be ideas for a lot of ...interesting... fanfiction/art. I find none of that to be creepy as this is going through a lot of beliefs regarding reincarnation and plays out a lot like Avatar The Last Airbender's cycle. He is us, and I mean it could play out that if you feel soul wise you're the lusty creeper type, then maybe your other soul is what you deserve.

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But he is not us. He is his own person that may share some traits but otherwise has his own beliefs and things. The creepy part is that he could just watch us everywhere. And if he does stay he is forced into things he might not like. The WoL getting a partner somewhere on the line? Things like that. Not in the case of him lusting after us.

So finally did the Nier raid

Still find it medicore at best. Even if the last part is a masterpiece it would not make up for the other parts. I am of the opinion that a story should be good throught the way and not only at the end..

There are things that make no sense to me. How did nobody notice all the big buildings? If its an illusion (as the sky being fake) for the first raid then who is powerful enough to do that? Even Emets Amaurot was not completely real. So I have to take that this can be seen from above..nobody ever noticed that? And lets not start with the new one..if it was hidden in the mountains how did it land into it without leaving a trail behind? Things falling from the sky are not "eaten" up by the landscape..

Also I had to laugh a bit when the attack on the village happened..especially since afterwards barely anything is destroyed and seemingly there are no death dwarves laying around..its like the Bahamut situation in the video..it fully attacking Limsa and Limsa being mostly fine afterwards..

I dont feel anything for these characters and I would not care a bit if they die in the last part..2P being a traitor was not that surprising..I am more surprised that 2B came out of nowhere and we somehow trusted her enough to show her 9S and even let them go..yeah give that android her partner..its not like we got betrayed by a twin of her only seconds ago...(the judgement on who of the two dwarfes were at fault just bad..especially since the situation was solved by 2B going out there with her weapon..and of course the one going "muhaha" runs away, leaving her poor brother behind to deal with the situation. I wonder if she will die in the next raid.

Story itself is barely here. Hey we came from out of space (how is that possible on the first?) and something about aliens..nothing more..seemingly the machines wanted to give birth too leading to that strange boss..and we learned nothing more..

The last part of the raid has to be huge to even make sense of it but I doubt that..you would need to explain so much and lets not even start with character development..Yoko Taro might be able to pull such things of in his own game..but those games are big and take hours to complete. Enough time to slowly built characters and the world..this is not the case with this raid, so seemingly pulling the big punshes only at the last raid is just bad imo. Either the last one will be soo full that it buries you under the information or it will disappoint and barely explain anything..

In the end I doubt that I will feel like this belong to the lore of FF14..it just feels like a big advertisement for Yoko Taro and maybe some things for Fans of Nier..but that could have been done with an event like all the other ones..why throw away a whole 24 man raid for this?

At least the music is nice I guess..most bosses were boring though..just aoe after aoe.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

While it's true that seemingly the souls of Haurchefant and Ysayle came back to help the WoL and Alphinaud(not Aymeric, he was a witness not a participant) pull the eyes out of Estinien, that's something I chock up to the writers wanting a symmetrical capstone moment, rather than adhering strictly to the in world soul lore, which is already wishy-washy at best. Up to that point we're already shown that despite our first blade of aether not killing Lahabrea, merely banishing him from his host body, that we could use something very much like it to straight up kill an Ascian, and we do kill one when we, with the aid of Moenbryda, kill Nabriales.

The reason Ser Zephirin uses a javelin of light in his attempt to kill the WoL, which Haurchefant thwarts, is to put us down, since the WoL is effectively immortal unless their body is completely destroyed due to The Echo. I guess we could say the writers have never 100% decided whether or not it means soul death, but I'd always considered the Ascian soul destruction context to mean that when blades of light are in play, souls die.

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So we should just assume that in the case of Haurchefant it was purely fanservice, instead of taking the more logical idea that he simply just got killed? Not every light attack will kill a soul otherwise any light based attack in the game would be horrible to use at all. The destruction of the ascians where always one a whole other level. Lahabrea only got destroyed by Thordan who was charged up by thousands of years of prayers and Nidhoggs eye. And suddenly a mere add can do that? I doubt it.

Why should anyone of the knights of the round even know about us being immortal? (And we are not immortal at all..we did die in the bad future and as far as we now that did not destroy our soul either) And if they believe that, why did they never use that attack again? (Ex mechanics are just that, mechanics imagined by the wandering npc)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

They haven't explained how the Unsundered Ascians remained that way after Hydaelyn sundered the world. We may get answers to it someday, we may not. Basically the real answer is, "Because the scriptwriter said so." It's just the way things happened.

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What this person said very much so

However WHAT I was saying was still speculation some of which were taken on guess to who theybwere and how their powers worked or just being silly. And it wasn't just Elidibus and Lahabrea who were considered unsundered Emet was also. I could even speculate that they were off planet (lahabrea and Emet) when the Sundering took place or even

Elidibus was created as a primal from the heart of Zodiark right as zodiark was getting the Hydaelyn kick

but we still don't know yet.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But he is not us. He is his own person that may share some traits but otherwise has his own beliefs and things. The creepy part is that he could just watch us everywhere. And if he does stay he is forced into things he might not like. The WoL getting a partner somewhere on the line? Things like that. Not in the case of him lusting after us.

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Alleo I think you need to divorce the fact that he he was at one point a seperate person. Our PC even stated when Meatsuit first showed up that it couldn't be the real one due to him still being merged with us. I highly doubt he's floating around our soul being voyeuristic when it comes to a female PC taking a shower or being with a loved one... unless I hope you're being facetious.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Alleo I think you need to divorce the fact that he he was at one point a seperate person. Our PC even stated when Meatsuit first showed up that it couldn't be the real one due to him still being merged with us. I highly doubt he's floating around our soul being voyeuristic when it comes to a female PC taking a shower or being with a loved one... unless I hope you're being facetious.

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No I am not facetious. I just find it a bit unsettling that all. And I am not even sure why it was needed other than giving another emotional goodbye. So if you are fine with it, that great, I just dont like the idea. I thought that he got a nice ending at the end of 5.0. (But I guess he will just be remembered in the story when they want to otherwise he will remain quiet..)

How about it being put like this Alleo... I'll just go get my quote from another

Dont think of it as he's living as a forced soul inside of our body... think of it as hes completely merged with our PC and has become one with us, however that doesn't mean that he in essence is truly gone. Nor does it also mean that we could call upon his likeness and voice whenever we pleased, best example was when we desperately wanted to talk to him but Elidibus showed up in said Ardbert's meat suit. I also don't think we magically called him forth but with our help and Seto's ability to see his Master's soul (and it being merged with ours) that we could help bring it more towards the front (so to speak) and give them the final farewell and closure. The Pc also acted more as an intermediary for the two while most of the speaking was going on via more of a Soul communion (via minds eye or third eye for Seto) and we just got to hug a giant amaro for it. It doesn't mean that he's hanging around like I said in our mind doing and thinking perverted things. Setonand he never got closure and that was the PC's way of delivering that kindness to the giant bird.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

Hero's gauntlet

So are Thief, Necromancer, Berserker confirmed now?

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probably not. warrior literally has a berserk skill, thief was originally what the rogues guild was called. necromancy is part of the lore as an actual job but i have doubts.

That all might be true Rannie, or it might not. (He was also talking inside us against Elidibus) I did read all the other opinions in the thread on the general forum. And they do have good points. But it remains speculation. We might see if he appears some more after that or not. Seto could have gotten the closure when Ardbert was still a ghost.

In the end its just MY feelings. And no matter how something may make sense otherwise I just dont like him appearing at all (and I love his character..). I thought that the end of 5.0 was perfect. It just like with Shiva!Ryne. Yes she is using an adult body right now, still does not mean that I cant feel uneasy about the way she is dressed or that we are beating up a child..

So I guess we can drop this point, because we would only go around in circles.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

...

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It's the same power that charges up Thordan that charges up Ser Zephirin. Clearly it should take less to kill an unsundered soul, and the reason that they know about the Echo and what can be done with it, is because Lahabrea told them. They were in Cahoots for most of Heavensward.

As for the Black Rose future, well, if our body were made completely uninhabitable assuming that we could use our Echo as Zenos did, which we don't know if we can but we should be able to, then we would not take someone else's body due to us being "good" guys. And also needing for said body to not have been exposed to Black Rose. So it's not so much a, "we can't do that" it's a, "we wouldn't do that."

As for taking the more logical approach... well I did, since it's one of the many examples of the story stepping on its own toes, since they throw out the established rules all of the time to bend the knee to, "The Rule of Cool" or fan service. As for why they wouldn't try the same thing twice, well there's the charge time, the need for us to be off guard, and the fact that we became more powerful than them by the end of Heavensward.

The logical thing is that if they show the ghosts of someone helping us that it means that both of those ghosts/souls are there. (They helped us pulling it out) Which in turn means that Haurchefant still had his soul.

Nabriales still needed huge amount of aether from the staff and Moenbrydas aether to destroy his soul. He was sundered. Thordan was the one getting most of the aether, the rest were basically just adds. I doubt that they even have anywhere near the power. And if they had the power to just kill somebodies soul (something which is quite different to do and barely happens) why not use that power constantly in the fight to kill us?

So Haurchefant got hit by an attack, died because it pierced him, came back to help later and his body also did not disappear like any other body did when we took them out that way. I am not sure why we should just assume that SE would go so far and even destroy his souls like that.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The logical thing is that if they show the ghosts of someone helping us that it means that both of those ghosts/souls are there. (They helped us pulling it out) Which in turn means that Haurchefant still had his soul.

Nabriales still needed huge amount of aether from the staff and Moenbrydas aether to destroy his soul. He was sundered. Thordan was the one getting most of the aether, the rest were basically just adds. I doubt that they even have anywhere near the power. And if they had the power to just kill somebodies soul (something which is quite different to do and barely happens) why not use that power constantly in the fight to kill us?

So Haurchefant got hit by an attack, died because it pierced him, came back to help later and his body also did not disappear like any other body did when we took them out that way. I am not sure why we should just assume that SE would go so far and even destroy his souls like that.

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They show the spirits of almost every good NPC help us when we blade of light Lahabrea. Were they there for real then? No.

Nabriales was the first Ascian killed in this way, and it set the precedence for what is required, but this precedence didn't become a hard rule. It was also long before they brought in the, "Sundered vs. Unsundered" plot point. We didn't have anyone sacrifice their own soul to fulfill the aether quantity for any future Ascian, though Ardbert's soul fusion did reinforce our vessel so we could direct the aether we used to kill Emet-selch. The Heavensward aren't just adds. They're full on bosses that initially take 4 WoLs to beat, gameplay wise. They are all linked as a joint-primal, based off Knights of The Round from FF7. That's why they all die together when we kill Thordan. As for why not use that power, again, the charge time, our increase in power, and the need for us to be beaten first or be off our guard.

Haurchefant's body didn't disappear because that is his flesh and blood body. Lahabrea, Igeyohrm, Nabriales, and Emet-selch were all already in soul-body form when they were destroyed.

In terms of Ascian headcount;

I'll try and keep this chronological based off what I can remember.

Emmerololth falls during the Isle of Val incident, which is pegged at Patch 2.1 A Realm Awoken, but we see him back up and running again by 2.3 Defenders of Eorzea. We can be reasonably sure that Lahabrea or Elidibus raised up the replacement. Emet-Selch is a little more uncertain, because it is not clear if he went straight off to sleep after he checked out in his role as Emperor Solus. Patches 2.1, 2.3, 4.4, and the Eureka storyline give us these facts.

In terms of overlords, we personally unmade both Nabriales (Patch 2.5 Before the Fall) and Igeyorhm (Patch 3.0 Heavensward). Thordan accounted for Lahabrea (Patch 3.0 Heavensward). Meanwhile, Gaius Baelsar, in his guise as Shadowhunter, has seen off 4 black-masked ascians (he throws one mask on the ground at Alphinaud's feet - Patch 4.3 Under the Moonlight) and 2 red-masked overlords. To the best of my knowledge we have no clue as to the identities of these overlords, nor do we know if Gaius unmade these ascians in a manner similar to how the WOL did. If they were simply defeated and fled into the rift, and the mask was salvaged from whichever body they had inhabited, can these be counted as true kills? I think this is a key point of uncertainty.

By this point, Emet-Selch is presumed taking his nap, so I suggest this leaves the task of raising up replacement Ascian souls to Elidibus alone. When Emet-Selch returns to active service in Patch 4.4 Prelude in Violet, we do not know whether he raised any soul fragments up to the uninhabited offices.

We then dealt the required blow to Emet-Selch (Patch 5.0 Shadowbringers) and Elidibus (Patch 5.3 Reflections in Crystal) leaving nobody able to raise up soul fragments to the offices. Fandaniel appears soon after.

Other thoughts and some questions:
We can't know what's going on in the five remaining shards (not counting the First). Ascians might have been dying left, right, and centre, forcing the unsundered into a constant stream of business trips to raise new fragments up.
We know Logrihf and Mitron were defeated by Ardbert and co. As sundered souls, it seems likely they were raised up again at some point? All L/E/E-S would need to do is locate one of the fragments, right?
Despite being sundered souls, Igeyorhm - and Nabriales in particular - are referred to as dead and gone. Does this suggest that there were no more fragments of these two to be found across the shards, or that something about the method of their demise meant there could be no bringing them back whethere there were fragments remaining or not?
Are the erroneous numbers in certain 2.x cutscenes just an error, or because the Ascian dynamics were not totally established by this point in the game's development?
Is this all just a fool's errand?


Answers on a postcard...


There are probably other things I haven't thought of!

TL;DR - Ascian mathematics may require a degree course!

OK, time for some Pepe Silvia nonsense.

Regarding Fandaniel!

There are some hints that something is very, very wrong with him.

One, his actions are antithesis to the Ascians' plans. Their goal was to restore Zodiark to his position as "rightful" ruler of the planet; Fandaniel has no such desire, actually serving as Zenos' accomplice in his efforts to consume his power.

Two, his soul crystal, when picked up in phantom Amaurot, talks about him feeling his soul being twisted and being troubled by it but ultimately accepting it.

Three, while all of the Ascians' glyphs are inverted fragments of their corresponding Ivalician esper's, Fandaniel's... isn't. It's right side up, and appears to be a bit compressed - but more interestingly it's color inverted: the black parts are blank and the clear parts are the ones actually filled in, unlike the rest.

Four, if we assume Zenos has the same measure of control over his Resonance's noncombat functions as Fordola, it's rather plausible that his constant dreams of the Final Days are a result of Fandaniel's presence / influence. Zenos claims to have had the dream for as long as he can remember, but I believe he said it's become more frequent as of late.

Five, he wears the exact opposite colored robes as the other Ascians.

Rewatching the 5.3 scene, he's clearly trying to play to and entertain Zenos, as well as make Zenos believe he has control over him. The plans are all his; he's just using Zenos as a beatstick to get them accomplished, and deferring to him to give the illusion of control to Zenos.

What does this all mean, if anything? Who knows.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...qyvo1_1280.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Regarding Fandaniel!

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A number of characters greater than or equal to ten.

Since I feel that the true cause of the Final Days is still a hanging thread at this point, my personal theory is that the soul of Fandaniel was somehow corrupted by this "keening sound from beneath the ground". That Fandaniel might be a vessel for this entity/whatever it might be, to walk amidst the Ascians and work to its own ends.

General thoughts on MSQ:

The first part with the kids dragged unexpectedly. With so much content to go through and the knowledge that things were quite urgent for my friends' wellbeing, here I am participating in this cute but not particularly relevant sidequest instead. It's not terrible but the story isn't off to the exciting start I was anticipating.

The Exarch arriving with his arm all crystalised was a nasty shock. A highly predictable one of course, but still unpleasant to see it's happening.

Rammbroes' message to G'raha strikes me as odd and ambiguously worded, and I originally took it with an alternate interpretation that didn't seem to play out. I need to set my thoughts on it out as a separate post, I think.

It was interesting having the specific plot point that the Exarch would have to see G'raha as his true identity for them to successfully merge. It's a noticable thing that the WoL does call him by name and make him start to connect to that long-forgotten self again, so perhaps we really contributed to that working out in the end.

It was nice to see Hythlodaeus again.

That last scene between the Exarch and Lyna is lovely.

I had a panic moment when they suggested the Exarch might be a primal like Elidibus. That really would have been awful.

Elidibus feels out-of-character and rushed. The narrative works for the here and now but it doesn't feel like it clicks with the patient schemer he's been portrayed as overall. Or has he been sliding into insanity for some time?

I thought I was going to need more tissues for this finale. Did need them for the scene with Seto.

There's a nice shot where you're clutching the Exarch's crystal and, for me, Aurelie always wears the House Fortemps signet ring still and that was visible too. So symbols of two people that are dear to her and - it strikes me now as I write this - one she lost, one she can yet save...

The victory lap send-off was nice and all, but I thought it was quite urgent at this point to get the Scions home before their souls are irrevocably broken? The ship is sinking, the lifeboats are ready and suddenly everyone wants to go back to their cabins.

The animators need more budget for getting characters to physically interact. There were some much-needed hugs in farewell cutscenes that went unmade.

Also I feel like there was a missed opportunity for us to hold up the Exarch's crystal as the city gathers to farewell us all.

When Tataru mentioned making new outfits for everyone I was excited to see what they'd be, but it was just their outfits from the First again. Aside of not being new, it just seems a bit odd to see them back in the Source wearing those outfits? It seems out of place in a way that it didn't when they were in the First.

Also, Alisaie's animations were hilarious.

Re. G'raha Tia:

I am just so happy that Raha is back. I don't care how narratively appropriate it would be for him to truly die there; I like him and I want to give him his wish and take him with me on adventures.

It makes a lovely afterthought to that scene on the clifftop in Shadowbringers, when he expressed how much he wished he could travel the world with us - at the time he thought he was describing a dream that he knew could never happen, and now it is going to be reality and it is wonderful.

On a side note, I really really like his new outfit design. It draws on all the details from his Exarch robes and works it into a nice balance of modern style and fantasy details. (I wish we got more things like this for glamour gear instead of plain modern casual.)

Meanwhile, it's nice that we've let the people at the Crystarium know that he's actually alive and doing well. Must be a terribly strange thing for them though.

All happiness aside though, wasn't he specifically in the tower to guarantee that there'd be someone able to control it at whatever point it was reopened? Unless the soul crystal continues to be functional as a key not physically bound to an individual, I suppose.

Re. the solo duty:

The solo duty fighting past characters felt like it didn't know what it was trying to achieve. Funnily enough I'd been writing elsewhere just a few days earlier about how the Lv70 DRK quest was disappointing, presenting the idea of forcing you to relive past guilts and regrets then making you fight a collection of people you didn't feel particularly guilty about fighting, and how it would have been so much more effective if they'd made you slay illusions of people you cared about. It would have been horrible, but narratively effective.

I hit this part and thought "oh wow, they're actually going to do it this time."

They didn't. It fell flat the same way.

The weirdest thing is that it started with that gut punch of fighting some of the Scions, but then just had the rest of them stand around decoratively. If you're going to go such an awful route, for goodness sake, carry through with it.

The Heroes' Gauntlet was a bigger punch to the guilt factor, even if they cleared up later that the heroes are being fully, physically summoned against us - not that I'm entirely sure that makes it okay either. These aren't conjured phantoms, they're real people plucked from their worlds and thrown against us to fight with all their might, and what the heck are we doing to them by apparently slaying their souls or their will to fight?

Re. merging with Ardbert:

The thing about merging with Ardbert is that it's not the first time souls (including our own) have merged because it's already happened repeatedly in the Rejoinings. It's just, possibly, the first time that the merging soul was still conscious and in possession of its memories at the time.

It's not really clear how it works, but we're not constantly getting Ardbert talking in our head or anything. The one time he's apparently manifested, it's in conjunction with his crystal and a dear friend who can recognise his soul within you.

Re. constellation stones:

There's an interesting detail in the journal entry for "Hope's Confluence", the quest where you defeat Elidibus:

Quote:

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Before the Ascian fades into oblivion, however, you choose to restore his lost memories to him, giving him a semblance of peace at the last.

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This seems to be the act of giving him the stones. Could this add up? When did he lose them? Did he accidentally trail them through Amaurot for us to find? (Either immediately or sometime earlier for Hythlodaeus to find them first.)

Unfortunately there's no journal text for "Etched in the Stars", the quest where you first collect them, which could have been enlightening.

Someone elsewhere pointed out that the two stones he's holding at the end are Lahabrea and Igeyorhm's. I haven't double-checked that for myself, but it's a nice detail.

Re. YoRHa

I do not care about this story one bit. I don't feel like I've been given a reason to care or be at all intrigued by its mysteries. The characters aren't endearing or amusing or... anything at all really. The whole thing is just there and the emotional investment is not.

Also is the command centre supposed to look like a low-grade computer animation compared the the rest of it? The room just looked unfinished.

(1)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

(Feel free to skip this entire futile rant about time.)

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I know we'll probably never agree on how to interpret the timeline shenanigans, and in some ways I really like the neatness of "our G'raha travels back to become the Exarch" restoring a single linear time loop, I feel like it would be too cheap from an emotional narrative angle. Everything he has ever expressed about the people he left behind is a lie. The Twinning's final message from Biggs III is pure theatre. And let's not even start on deliberately staging a would-be Echo vision...

Basically, yes it would close the time loop at the cost of retroactively turning a genuine situation into a massive emotional manipulation about a tragedy that never happened.

Plus, it wouldn't account for G'raha and the WoL's souls being similarly dense if G'raha never went through the eighth Rejoining. (By their current counts, judging from G'raha's post-MSQ dialogue, we have +1 from Ardbert, and Raha has +1 from the Rejoining and not +9 because duplicate fragments merge without trace. Or something.

Side note: I wonder if the unlock quest for the Twinning has variable dialogue now? As I remember, we were personally recommended by the Exarch to clear out the basement. Also his lack of personal involvement always seemed like an extra death flag to me - a pity as it would have been interesting to hear his thoughts on it.

(11)

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Originally Posted by Turethir

Just finished it, my thoughts:

I thought it played it a little too safe. I would rather see G'raha with the Exarch's memories, rather than just... the Exarch but in another body. Then there's at least a little impact to his "death" and there would have been a sense of loss and bittersweetness... the scene where his body crystalised felt very lacklustre to me because I already knew he'd be fine. Also felt it was strange how soon his plan was revealed to us.

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I agree the scene where he crystalised wasn't as sad as I'd expected because you know you'll be waking him up again soon. It still feels solemn, though.

But as for it being "the Exarch but in another body"... I feel like he's balanced between the two, actually. Sometimes he speaks with all the experience of the Exarch, sometimes he's G'raha who has received his older self's memories but is still young. Both aspects are the recent past for him. It depends on the situation, and so far what little chance we've had to talk with him is strongly about reminiscing on the events of Shadowbringers. The impression may change as we spend more time with him just being himself.

(40)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

Well for the MSQ . . . .

So lil mentions, did we give no f's about what Source Tia wanted?? like we get no scene of waking him did we just force Exarch into him & erase Source Tia.

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That did strike me as odd and a little unsettling, and I was suprised they chose to do it that way (I'm pretty sure I've previously wrote against them doing it for exactly that reason), but then seeing as the writers did choose to do it then I can only rationalise that the Exarch knows he would have been fine with it.

Alternately or as well, seeing as we didn't actually see G'raha's reawakening, perhaps we woke him first up and asked whether he was willing to accept it. Not that you'd probably want to say no to something like that, but again, the Exarch IS G'raha and would justifiably know that he would want to do it.

Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

(74)

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

One thing I thought about today that kindda made me sad was...

Hythlodaeus is still walking around the recreation of Amaurot. And even though it's not really him, he seems self aware and therefore sentient in a way. And now that Emet is gone he will be forced to walk through the shadows of the magics that make up the place and the ghosts of his people mindlessly repeating their day to day, until the time comes when it, and he, slowly fades away. That is a hell of a sad thought to think he is condemned to such a fate.

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Well... maybe he can make friends with the Ondo? If Archaeotania can run that far away from the city then maybe he can too.

We'll have to introduce them next time we're visiting the Tempest.

(117)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I don't know if this is something I missed from 5.2, but Rae-Qesh in the Cabinet of Curiosity is pondering the marvels of the world, like Ryne talking about finding a bird underwater.

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Generally, Rae-Qesh is always talking about shoebills.

Specifically, if you missed it in 5.2, Ryne finds the shoebill in the benthos' lair when we sneak in there.


(164)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

[on naming conventions]

What I'm mad at her about is the whole subtle convo she has as current dialogue once everything is done. About G'raha.
She says she won't drop the Tia portion until he decides what he's going to be in life or whatever, basically saying she doesn't acknowledge that he was already a Nunh. Guess she needs him to bang some of his own nieces like a regular Nunh before she gives him true respect. Big props to Alphinaud though.

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You're assuming that he should rightfully be considered a nunh. I don't believe that he ever was, and if he could have been at one point then he isn't any more.

For now he is G'raha Tia and he introduced himself as such in the ending cutscene. Rammbroes is still calling him that as well, and I'm sure Urianger wouldn't be so informal as to drop the title even if everyone else did.

But the problem isn't with what the characters are choosing to do, it's with the information in the first place. (I'm on the verge of taking this to the localisation forum because they don't seem to be able to keep their own lore straight on this subject.) Y'shtola's explanation simply does not line up with the official Naming Conventions - tia doesn't specifically denote anything, but is the default state of not being a nunh, even for someone who previously was a nunh but was ousted by a challenger. And G'raha is definitely not a nunh.

He could maybe theoretically have claimed the title while he was Exarch, not that it would count for anything in the First, but it would be bending the definition and in any case he'd essentially abandoned his name and identity as a Seeker at that point - he couldn't use it openly because his plan relied on it remaining unknown, and his expected path led him to a place where he'd never have a reason to take it up again.

Now, as G'raha himself says, he is no longer leader of the Crystarium and holds no territory or power. He has not claimed a tribe. He is currently a tia and has no reason to be addressed otherwise, unless Y'shtola's dialogue is an outright attempt to rewrite the lore. She should be correcting Alphinaud on his misunderstanding, not repeating it.

(176)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

To expound on this, if you pierce any soul with a pure aether blade, then the soul will be destroyed rather than return to the lifestream. This is part of what made Haurchefant's death so poignant. That javelin of light, "Spear of The Fury" was meant to kill and destroy an immortal Echo user(the WoL). Instead it kills Haurchefant, body and soul.

We haven't just been killing Ascians, we've been erasing them completely. At least, that's how it goes in the writing of the NA version.

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Your later posts seems to indicate you're just theorising based on what we know about using a sufficiently concentrated blast of aether to destroy an Ascian.

That doesn't instantly mean that any blade formed of any concentration of aether will have that effect. And like our destruction of the Ascians, it may require the soul to be contained first.

Even when we were already firing a pure blade at Nabriales, it took Moenbryda's aether to create enough force to even pierce his defences.

So yes, IF Zephirin was strong enough and IF he was looking to destroy our soul and not just kill us and IF the soul doesn't need to be contained before blasting it... then yeah, maybe. But not necessarily and we have evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Mieck

A number of characters greater than or equal to ten.

Since I feel that the true cause of the Final Days is still a hanging thread at this point, my personal theory is that the soul of Fandaniel was somehow corrupted by this "keening sound from beneath the ground". That Fandaniel might be a vessel for this entity/whatever it might be, to walk amidst the Ascians and work to its own ends.

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On Fandaniel.

For all we know he/it might actually be an aspect of the Sound, whatever it is. There were hints earlier in Shadowbringers that the Sound was a result of the Ancients losing control over their creation magic. So, perhaps it manifested somehow in the form of a corporeal entity?

It's also troubling that Alisae heard a sound as well then suffered from a brief dizzy spell. This seems to hint that whatever happened before is starting to happen again. It's probably no coincidence that it's happening around the same time Fandaniel has shown up.

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Originally Posted by Lium

On Fandaniel.

For all we know he/it might actually be an aspect of the Sound, whatever it is. There were hints earlier in Shadowbringers that the Sound was a result of the Ancients losing control over their creation magic. So, perhaps it manifested somehow in the form of a corporeal entity?

It's also troubling that Alisae heard a sound as well then suffered from a brief dizzy spell. This seems to hint that whatever happened before is starting to happen again. It's probably no coincidence that it's happening around the same time Fandaniel has shown up.

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Hmm on that note: (pun unintended?)

That may actually make that scene with Y'shtola a bit more ominous, as in she knew there may be a need they're called upon again. Maybe reading too much into it, but it was really a very STRANGE scene with the effects. I mean unless it was an "error" like Voice set 7 with the Viera what was exactly going on there?

YT for those that don't want to search for it at the inn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCie2IebTIU

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Originally Posted by Lium

It's also troubling that Alisae heard a sound as well then suffered from a brief dizzy spell. This seems to hint that whatever happened before is starting to happen again. It's probably no coincidence that it's happening around the same time Fandaniel has shown up.

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threescore wasted, ten characters aside.

Alisale's case could just be due to the link between body and soul weakening, she and the Scions were still on borrowed time until the end of the patch, and Thancred also mentioned lightheadedness

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

So a lot of Npcs have updated

-Magnai hasn't but what he says with what we know just makes me want to rub it in XD

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Out of my chair, little sun--Big Sun is in the house.

(character limit text here0

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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Elidibus / Stones

One of the things Y'shtola questions Elidibus on is whether or not his memory is still clear, and the PC can later call him out on trying to fulfill the wishes of those who have all passed on. Both times he defaults to "It's doesn't matter," but this is more of him defaulting to his programming as a primal than his earnest thoughts and feelings. As a consequence of all those who initially called on / needed him passing away, he no longer has them to keep his existence grounded, and begins losing even more of himself as he draws more and more on the wishes of heroes across the worlds for strength. It's a consequence of his existence as a primal.

Best illustrated in one of the pre-battle cutscenes; when you tell him those he swore to serve are all gone, he tries to restate that oath... but can't remember to whom he swore it.

That said he still does clearly recognize Emet-Selch when he bails you out of the Rift, so who knows.

Regardless, the fact none of the Ascians, save perhaps Emet-Selch, recognize Azem in the PC is a fairly clear sign their memories aren't perfect either.

YoRHa

I agree that what we've gotten so far is a bit dull, but it's important to remember this is Yoko Taro, whose MO is to throw a cruel twist into the final act that recontextualizes just about everything. There are also hints that everything is not what it seems; from 2P's boss title translating to "Longing" in hex, to the contents of her log of the same name, to where said log is found, it's clear things aren't as simple as it appears. That said it ultimately just looks like a rehash of Automata proper, so I'm rather unimpressed. (Unlike a lot of other big raid references, that one was released not so long ago, so riding on nostalgia is a less viable option.)

And yeah, literally every character in the quest chain treating the PC as little more than their gofer hasn't endeared me to any of them. I get that it's a mark of Yoko Taro's writing, but still.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The solo duty fighting past characters felt like it didn't know what it was trying to achieve.

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Very much so.

Also...

Elidibus constantly accusing us of not caring about the fate of his people was so bothering - since it wasn't true at all. If the ending of 5.0 had achieved anything, then it was this.

When he then turned the Amaurotines into races of our time, so that we would relate to his feelings of grief and loss, it felt so unneccessary. In fact, I had felt more related to them, when they had appeared as Amaurotines.

All-in-all, the solo duty felt like an half-hearted, forced attempt to make us realize that to him, we are the bad ones. What we had already known.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

... it would have been so much more effective if they'd made you slay illusions of people you cared about.

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Absolutely. A missed opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Elidibus / Stones

One of the things Y'shtola questions Elidibus on is whether or not his memory is still clear, and the PC can later call him out on trying to fulfill the wishes of those who have all passed on. Both times he defaults to "It's doesn't matter," but this is more of him defaulting to his programming as a primal than his earnest thoughts and feelings. As a consequence of all those who initially called on / needed him passing away, he no longer has them to keep his existence grounded, and begins losing even more of himself as he draws more and more on the wishes of heroes across the worlds for strength. It's a consequence of his existence as a primal.

Best illustrated in one of the pre-battle cutscenes; when you tell him those he swore to serve are all gone, he tries to restate that oath... but can't remember to whom he swore it.

That said he still does clearly recognize Emet-Selch when he bails you out of the Rift, so who knows.

Regardless, the fact none of the Ascians, save perhaps Emet-Selch, recognize Azem in the PC is a fairly clear sign their memories aren't perfect either.

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If anything, i think the fact that the other ascians not remember Azen is more due to the fact they have always saw him as a traitor because Azem always went against traditions and people tend to never remember properly the people they hate.

Azem directly resolved the issues himself with others while the other memebrs for the 14 follow the tradition of sitting in their tower safely in their city sipping tea and debating on how to resolve the issue first before finally agreeing in majority what to do. A tradition that no doubt left issues to spread to a point when it was already too late to resolve because they chosen to sit on their butts too long on what to do first. From what we learned in the Ascian society, they were more of Majority must agree before they can act kind of people but Azen being a act first and discuss it later type of person does not really give them the best impressions for in their eyes they may see him/her as reckless and dangerous for acting alone.

Heck it is even mentioned Azem was the only one who went outside of the city and tower to explore the world to see the issues directly as well while the 13 members remaind in their city with the only knowledge they get from outside the city are from reports that may not contain all the details about what is going on and in some possible cases may arrive too late to act.

G'raha stuff:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Rammbroes' message to G'raha strikes me as odd and ambiguously worded, and I originally took it with an alternate interpretation that didn't seem to play out. I need to set my thoughts on it out as a separate post, I think.
[...]
All happiness aside though, wasn't he specifically in the tower to guarantee that there'd be someone able to control it at whatever point it was reopened? Unless the soul crystal continues to be functional as a key not physically bound to an individual, I suppose.

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Ramnbroes message was specifically meant to absolve him of his "duty" to the Tower, as well as his inherited duty to Lady-never-mentioned-again Salina herself. The tower has brought hope to people of future times, just not on the Source. Mission accomplished. Sealing it again is more of an "and the Master Sword sleeps... forever" formality than anything else. It's going to sleep again, but this time without leaving that nagging sense of wasteduntapped potential. The writers have other toys they want to play with now. (Like Azys Lla, maybe?)

It also still stands that it could eventually be awakened and operated by other means, just like literally every other piece of technology ever made. Hell, that's been proven at least partway already. The "living key" bit was only ever a flimsy diabolus ex machina to begin with, so the less they dwell on it the better, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Alternately or as well, seeing as we didn't actually see G'raha's reawakening, perhaps we woke him first up and asked whether he was willing to accept it. Not that you'd probably want to say no to something like that, but again, the Exarch IS G'raha and would justifiably know that he would want to do it.

Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

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G'raha outright says that there are no contradictions in his memory, which I believe means his Source self was asleep at the time of the transfer. His Source self's memories end at the time he sealed the tower (and presumably found a cozy corner for a catnap), so the only new memories would be waking in the Eighth UE, getting sent to the First, and then returning to the Source. It's a single, unbroken chain of events with no divergence, therefore no opportunity for Source!G'raha to exist as a separate individual. Which I guess still sounds awful if you write it all out, so that's probably why they didn't.

Is it maybe too convenient? Yeah, sure. Is there room for a darker "but actually" down the line? Also yes, but going into that now would have soured the feeling they wanted for this particular finale, just like how the Exarch's body going off warranty wasn't brought up at the end of 5.0 proper.

Unless the real plan is for every Scion but Alph and Alie to have some sort of Sword of Damocles like Y'shtola's cast-from-lifespan aethersight, and for them all to come back into play at the worst possible moment. Yeah, not going to think about that anymore...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Unless the real plan is for every Scion but Alph and Alie to have some sort of Sword of Damocles like Y'shtola's cast-from-lifespan aethersight, and for them all to come back into play at the worst possible moment. Yeah, not going to think about that anymore...

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Let's see...

Apart from the aforementioned, Thancred does have an inability to use Aether and Urianger has....job security until they require the EX ARR Trials. Krile didn't have any known adverse effects from being rescued from Eureka, but then again her involvement in that plotline gives her a simialr aegis to Urianger's.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

General thoughts on MSQ:

The first part with the kids dragged unexpectedly. With so much content to go through and the knowledge that things were quite urgent for my friends' wellbeing, here I am participating in this cute but not particularly relevant sidequest instead. It's not terrible but the story isn't off to the exciting start I was anticipating.

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I figure that sequence was meant to illustrate (with the subtlety of an anvil, but that's standard for FFXIV) that even if the desire to become Warriors of Light to help people was initially prompted by someone with ulterior nefarious motives, it is still a good and noble desire to want to help people. Alphinaud mentions as much after the grape-picking.

However, I also agree that it drags out a little too much. It could certainly have been streamlined a bit, especially since we didn't need to include fetch quests to make the point.

I admit I'm a little impatient to be able to discuss this patch without spoiler blocks, mainly because it's kind of a hassle to make sure I have that ten characters every time.

YoRHa fights against 10 characters in an effort to post this.

Did the raid earlier today. The fight itself wasn't really anything new. I did die a few times but that's because it was my first time in there. Future runs shouldn't be a problem. A couple people were creeped out by the last fight against 2P. I just typed in alliance chat, "This cannot continue," because the fight reminded me of the fight against Adam in Nier: Automata. I'm guessing that was intentional.

Was happy to see 9S! And also seeing 2B step up to defend the dwarves from the elders was a nice bit of character development on her part. When I was asked who was to blame for the incident, I chose "It's complicated." That's when 2B showed up. The whole thing ended on a downer with Konagg being alone. It was all very abrupt and gave the story a sad feel. I'm guessing this is the same ending for everyone? I can't imagine the Nier team writing multiple outcomes to the story.

And speaking of story, this is actually where I have a bit of a problem. I know this is a crossover event, but past raids in FFXIV are still considered part of the lore, even though they are optional content. As evidenced by the fact that Crystal Tower is now mandatory, Alexander was used to send Graha to the past and the Ivalice raids being required for Bozja. I can't for the life of me imagine how the Nier raids will be considered canon in this game. The leap in technology and the world-hopping implications are just too far out there (no pun intended) even for a Final Fantasy game.

Did you see those flight units attacking the dwarf village? Are you kidding me? Those things could wipe out the entirety of the First in the blink of an eye. Forget Ascians, Zenos, Fandaniel, Zodiark, Hydaelyn, Rejoinings...none of that would matter in the face of virtually anything from the YoRHa universe. The technology is quite literally light years ahead of ANYTHING in FFXIV. The Source would be utterly destroyed. In short order. It would be like Blade Runner showing up in Game of Thrones.

Is this just all for fun and not considered canon? Because otherwise this makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Lium

The technology is quite literally light years ahead of ANYTHING in FFXIV.

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I did make a point earlier in this thread that it's actually not, and that's an even bigger problem: the Yorha raid treats it as some brand new out-of-context problem, while our character should probably just go "yeah, this sort of thing happens surprisingly often".

Specifically I'm thinking of Omega.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I did make a point earlier in this thread that it's actually not, and that's an even bigger problem: the Yorha raid treats it as some brand new out-of-context problem, while our character should probably just go "yeah, this sort of thing happens surprisingly often".

Specifically I'm thinking of Omega.

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I guess you can make an argument that the Allagans had advanced technology not too dissimilar from what you'd see in a sci-fi setting. That's in fact why the Garleans are so obsessed with Allagan artifacts, and how magitek was born. Then there's the Werlyt storyline where we are seeing organic and synthetic organisms merging. So, it may not be as far out there as I initially thought.

Still, though, the whole thing just seems jarring to me. And the implications if all this proves to be canon are just...odd. Putting it kindly.