Primal drop system, still no changes?!

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Some people only know how to say "go play a single player game" which immediately makes me ignore anything else they say. This one was more fun to read cuz they mentioned easy mode.... FFXIV is equivalent to a game on easy mode already. lol

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And yet people constantly insist on making it easier, people these days are afraid of a challenge it seems. If you can't get every drop on the first run, surely it needs to be fixed.

Increasing drop rates =/= difficulty discussion.
I.e. If something is hard and they can't win they won't get items. If they win 100 times and have nothing.....
I'm all for hard content. I'm praying 2.0 will be the magical fix to every problem that many seem to think it will be. I know why rates are so bad, to keep some people playing, but I'm glad for the 10 -> 5 reduction.

Ifrit could be considered a challenge the first time. The 10th? Maybe. The 100th? Not so much. No one is asking to get "every drop on the first run," people are asking for it to not be a completely random grind to get the weapon they want. I don't even care about Ifrit since I have the weapons I want, but it's important to (keep) tell(ing) them that this system is retarded.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Hello everyone!

We looked into increasing the drop rate and allowing each party member to receive a inferno totem or kupo nut charm with each winning encounter, but instead of touching up on the drop rate, we decided to make adjustments to the number of required totems and nut charms.

In patch 1.22, the below changes are what we have planned:

• Inferno Totems: 10 → 5
• Kupo Nut Charms: 20 → 10

The reason we decided on this change is because if we changed the drop rate, there would still be unlucky players who would complain that they can't get an item, so we decided to not play with the drop rate and instead just change the amount of items required for exchange for a weapon.

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backwards thinking is backwards. That last statement was kind of ???

people will not complain if they always get a totem every run they do, even if you guys keep the current 10 totems per trade. The point is that people will feel rewarded after beating ifrit -that is, a good useful reward. IT IS NOT FUN DOING THE SAME FIGHT HUNDREDS OF TIMES WITHOUT A PROPER REWARD. Many players have voiced their opinion on this. As "challenging" as ifrit may be, after the 20th kill or so it just becomes tedious work to take him down over and over again for a random low chance to get either a totem or a weapon.

There has to be a nice line between acquiring these items that doesn't make the process too easy or too time consuming. I am not asking for easy mode, and I'm sure neither is anyone else at this point. What we want is something that makes sense. Don't make it super easy to get a set of primal weapons, but don't make it take over 100 kills either, as this is just a time sink.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Hello everyone!

We looked into increasing the drop rate and allowing each party member to receive a inferno totem or kupo nut charm with each winning encounter, but instead of touching up on the drop rate, we decided to make adjustments to the number of required totems and nut charms.

In patch 1.22, the below changes are what we have planned:

• Inferno Totems: 10 → 5
• Kupo Nut Charms: 20 → 10

The reason we decided on this change is because if we changed the drop rate, there would still be unlucky players who would complain that they can't get an item, so we decided to not play with the drop rate and instead just change the amount of items required for exchange for a weapon.

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Better, but that doesn't solve the problem at all: drops are terrible. A 100% totem/nut drop for everyone would have solved the complaining though, while keeping them at 10/20.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Hello everyone!

We looked into increasing the drop rate and allowing each party member to receive a inferno totem or kupo nut charm with each winning encounter, but instead of touching up on the drop rate, we decided to make adjustments to the number of required totems and nut charms.

In patch 1.22, the below changes are what we have planned:

• Inferno Totems: 10 → 5
• Kupo Nut Charms: 20 → 10

The reason we decided on this change is because if we changed the drop rate, there would still be unlucky players who would complain that they can't get an item, so we decided to not play with the drop rate and instead just change the amount of items required for exchange for a weapon.

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What about both lowering the required items -and- increase the drop rate? I get the impression there are a lot of players, like myself, who rarely get to even do the fights. My LS doesn't have enough active people who are even interested, and I am a busy person, so I've yet to run either. Knowing that a weapon is that far out of my reach, I don't see the point of even trying at all. If I thought it was doable within this lifetime, I might actively try to talk them into it. Heck, more people might want to do it if they felt it wasn't such an interminable grind.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Ifrit could be considered a challenge the first time. The 10th? Maybe. The 100th? Not so much. No one is asking to get "every drop on the first run," people are asking for it to not be a completely random grind to get the weapon they want. I don't even care about Ifrit since I have the weapons I want, but it's important to (keep) tell(ing) them that this system is retarded.

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I don't like the drop rate, but this I do not agree with. This very system worked in dynamis for years even with a crappy drop rate, but we need a lot pass system in XIV that allows people to pass what they don't need to those who do. Its the lack of such a system that makes the drop rate so problematic. They should be able to fix it so items from chests go into the loot list, and not directly into inventory.

Me..my bf and his bro got him an Ifrit's Axe on totems in an evening...its not that hard...

Lol well..can't wait to see requirements for a Legendary weapon...easy mode go. :(

Come on seriously, they cant give us an upgrade in drop rates, if they do and we get our ifrit weapons, mog weapons, darklight gears and so on what do we have to do other than craft at this point? I used to stick by this game like none other but really the hours Im spending just crafting got to me and Im barely logging in anymore. If they increase the drop rate at all this will be way more widespread and though I will stay part of the game and play when there is playing to be done they would see less numbers creep up as we draw near a new update, even worse than we do now, and most likely alot more drop off from the bored-quitters than they see from the rage-quitters. So it makes sense they refuse to increase any drop rates

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Me..my bf and his bro got him an Ifrit's Axe on totems in an evening...its not that hard...

Lol well..can't wait to see requirements for a Legendary weapon...easy mode go. :(

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well this is part of the problem. some people may get very lucky and get the item they want, but others luck could be completely the opposite. the static i run with the bard in our group has yet to get the bow and the tank has yet to get the sword. there's been multiple times that we have dropped both of those. we've beaten ifrit over 450 times and still those 2 do not have those weapons for their main class.

the problem with the primal drop system is the fact that some people may get what they are after on the first day, but others may run that for months and still not get it and them see it thrown away countless times.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the problem with the primal drop system is the fact that some people may get what they are after on the first day, but others may run that for months and still not get it and them see it thrown away countless times.

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I started to post earlier but I didn't, but while I wait for my party to fill I'll see how much I can manage. :P Just as an example, there was this guy on Ridill that was really sweet/helpful and was very good at teaching people the Ifrit fight--i've seen him turn ~20+ people completely around, from dead weight that just eats raises to #2-3 DPSers in the fight. He did over 150 fights with a few duplicate weapons and barely any totems, and though he did have 10 totems he was trying to save them for the last weapon (since his luck was so awful anyway, I don't blame him). However, of those people he basically taught how to play, probably 5-10 are 7/7 now. I haven't seen him since just before 1.21, though, so no clue if he ever made it.

Too much luck, and not enough reward for dedication/experience/repetition...

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

well this is part of the problem. some people may get very lucky and get the item they want, but others luck could be completely the opposite. the static i run with the bard in our group has yet to get the bow and the tank has yet to get the sword. there's been multiple times that we have dropped both of those. we've beaten ifrit over 450 times and still those 2 do not have those weapons for their main class.

the problem with the primal drop system is the fact that some people may get what they are after on the first day, but others may run that for months and still not get it and them see it thrown away countless times.

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Just save your breath logic and common sense has left this thread 10 pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

I started to post earlier but I didn't, but while I wait for my party to fill I'll see how much I can manage. :P Just as an example, there was this guy on Ridill that was really sweet/helpful and was very good at teaching people the Ifrit fight--i've seen him turn ~20+ people completely around, from dead weight that just eats raises to #2-3 DPSers in the fight. He did over 150 fights with a few duplicate weapons and barely any totems, and though he did have 10 totems he was trying to save them for the last weapon (since his luck was so awful anyway, I don't blame him). However, of those people he basically taught how to play, probably 5-10 are 7/7 now. I haven't seen him since just before 1.21, though, so no clue if he ever made it.

Too much luck, and not enough reward for dedication/experience/repetition...

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But don't you get it? ITS SO EASY TO GET 7/7 just run it 250 times duh. Easy mode. Make sure you stack black mages so no one has to move for the whole fight except for eruptions and the whm don't have to heal anyone but the war your gonna bring. And get ready to spend 3 and a half days doing ifrit real game time played!

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Originally Posted by Mireille

I don't like the drop rate, but this I do not agree with. This very system worked in dynamis for years even with a crappy drop rate, but we need a lot pass system in XIV that allows people to pass what they don't need to those who do. Its the lack of such a system that makes the drop rate so problematic. They should be able to fix it so items from chests go into the loot list, and not directly into inventory.

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this is also extremely true, This alone will almost instantly fix this entire issue imo. It's what they should have done in the first place. Nothing makes people more angry than seeing someone who already has the lance get it again, and again, and again... while the players that don't have it don't get it. ~_~

the server should recognize what items we have in these situations, so we wont have to worry about getting the same RARE/EX things multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

You can't dumb down what's already retarded. How can you claim repeating the same fight 500 times is challenging. I can do Ifrit on god damn autopilot by now. Again, a challenging fight is challenging, the same fight 500 times isn't challenging it's tedious.

As for working for drops sure that's fine but can we have visible progress with each run please, not just hoping pigs suddenly grow wings and fly when we check the chest?

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So you want the WoW way? now we have totems or nuts to get a weapon, so you say that just to do it you deserve having all in 1 time? im not saying that i agree that we cant have our drops sooner with a simple and already easy to do fight, hell i would love to have the greed/need system, we would have the drops already if at least we had the loot list give option, but i wont agree with dumbing down drop rates, in games like WoW (i played it for 2 to 3 years) right after a patch is released you only needed to wait 2 weeks to have everything, theres no achievement there, right now if i see a guy/gal with darklight gear i know what theyve done, it feels great having a piece not easily obtained.

When you talk about MMOs you have to talk about time sinks, no dumb ones but some that require time and skill, Sky was even an achievement by itself (i really hope they change the areas of primals more like an unlockable area) you had to do lots of stuff before getting there, then you had to farm items in order to get the NM pop, and then after all that you had to kill it and then if you were lucky you could get a bad ass item, if not you had to do it all over again, and those NMs had several items to get your gear, so there was lot of luck on that, yeah it sucks for some but the content itself was interesting and took time and skill to achieve what you wanted.

If i wanted a game that i can finish in one week or weekend i wouldnt be playing an MMORPG i would be playing an offline RPG, im the type of guy that prefers difficulty over drop rate but in this case i dont think 250 fights is too much im not saying that in those 250 wins there wasnt any drop, there were a lot of drops weapons and totems but not for me, ive played with a lot of people sometimes we wiped sometimes ppl that joined and were doing that fight for second time they had luck and got a weapon that i was looking for. At the end is luck 2 weeks ago we won for the first time Cutters Cry and i got Darklight Caligae some people havent seen any of those drops and done it more times than me....

(250 fights x 5-10 minutes per fight) + (250 fights x re-entry timer for ifrit).... you REALLY don't think that's too much Elreed?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Because that would be too easy, everyone would be 7/7 in 2 weeks.

If SE allowed this they would make the drop rates even lower anyway which kind of defeats the purpose.

That's the beauty of a token system you can get 1 token every time and still walk away with something.

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So how many fights then should one have to do to get the ONE weapon they want? Not 7/7 just one.


Just so you know in ALL the Primal fights I've done so far this is roughly my rewards:

1 Ifrit's Bow (Archer was rank 26 at the time)
3 Kupo Nut Charms (Technically I had 4 but i passed one to a friend who needed it to be 7/7 on moogle)
6.5 Stacks of DM


Now, the friends I helped do the fights 3 of them are 7/7 on both primals. I have One weapon...never got a duplicate.

There are 2 sides to this crappy drop rate. (One person in my ls got the weapon he wanted on first win) But, since I can't solo Ifrit or Moogle, the reward shouldn't be a 'solo' reward. The group should decide who gets it, not the game. This is why I think the todem system needs to go. We're adults, we can handle sorting out who deserves what.

I don't mind having to work at a battle or fight to learn it. I don't even mind having to do it over and over to get drops/get people what they need and want. But pushing over 100+ battles against one Primal and still having players on your team who have nothing to show for it is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Also, since I can't solo Ifrit or Moogle, the reward shouldn't be a 'solo' reward. The group should decide who gets it, not the game.

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This is probably the most agreed-upon statement in forum history... I'm just wondering, as much as people have asked for it, has there ever been a dev response about it?

*Edit:* Not trying to hate on the devs, I just really don't know. >.>

IMO , drop rate of totem should be 100% drop for 1 run
but not to all ppl in party but just for 1 person
means 1 totem for 1 runs
( not to make it too easy if it drop to everyone)
and if you're lucky enough it will drop more than 1 totem for 1 run
( to others or maybe same person )
and if you're damn lucky you'll get weapon.

About duplicate items make it no drops to someone who already got it and have in inventory
or maybe make it not drop to self just put it in loot that way will be easier.

I do Ifrit over 200 runs and get all weapons 7/7 before Moogle is coming ( never use totem )
I do Moogle for about 100 runs and get all 7/7 weapons without using nutcharm
( while 1 guy in my party get 7/7 within 20 run )

I wonder , while someone can get over with why the others still complaining.

my personal opinion....the totem should be the reward for "Ifrit Bleeds, we can kill it" rather than a paltry amount of gil

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

10% Drop Rate

Share-able Loot Pool.

/thread

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this, how hard can it be seriously, stop making stupid ideas and just put it how it should be.

Increase the rarity of weapon drops but make it so you can pass it or whatever. Maybe a 5% chance drop rate with other loot in the table besides Dark Matter. Maybe other random gear or meds and pots or craftables....

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

(250 fights x 5-10 minutes per fight) + (250 fights x re-entry timer for ifrit).... you REALLY don't think that's too much Elreed?

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As i said in my last post i dont agree that we dont have a general pool for drops, even if we had the drop system of dungeons i would agree with that, but i got 4 of 7 weapons in all those wins and im not counting the drops i got even 3 times more like the ifrit claws, ifrit harpoon, etc in all those runs there were drops, lots of drops weapons and totems but those didnt land on me.

I dont think the problem here is the drop rate, THE DROP RATE IS FINE the loot system is what is wrong, so i dont want them to dumbdown the drop rate to a higher one, but instead i would love having at least the dungeon drop system so we can handle as adults giving each other what we dont need, i dont even think that we need a need/greed system i think a good thing of this comunity is that at least the ones with who i played are caritative and helpful in many ways.

I did a run tonight and at the time i joined i hadnt beat AV yet, i got the win and many drops that they didnt need....

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Originally Posted by elreed

As i said in my last post i dont agree that we dont have a general pool for drops, even if we had the drop system of dungeons i would agree with that, but i got 4 of 7 weapons in all those wins and im not counting the drops i got even 3 times more like the ifrit claws, ifrit harpoon, etc in all those runs there were drops, lots of drops weapons and totems but those didnt land on me.

I dont think the problem here is the drop rate, THE DROP RATE IS FINE the loot system is what is wrong, so i dont want them to dumbdown the drop rate to a higher one, but instead i would love having at least the dungeon drop system so we can handle as adults giving each other what we dont need, i dont even think that we need a need/greed system i think a good thing of this comunity is that at least the ones with who i played are caritative and helpful in many ways.

I did a run tonight and at the time i joined i hadnt beat AV yet, i got the win and many drops that they didnt need....

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Exactly, drop rate is actually pretty much spot on...we just need to be able to pass/lot stuff. I mean we have /random now... come on SE :) No todems/nutcharms/etc just let us pass loot if it drops and we don't want need. Problem solved everyone is happy.

Then the rate goes too high, and they lose repeat business, they'll have subs droppin left and right between patches. (even worse than they do now)

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Then the rate goes too high, and they lose repeat business, they'll have subs droppin left and right between patches. (even worse than they do now)

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Umm... if the only thing keeping you in game right now is Moogle or Ifrit, maybe it IS better for you and SE to take a break from each other for a little bit. I have PLENTY to do in game besides grind these 2 fights to keep me busy.

I still have fun with the crappy drop rates. To me, its all about who you play with. I have felt the pain of not getting much of anything. I have also felt the awesome feeling of getting that shiny new Item i have been waiting for, which i think trumps painful feeling. In the end I just like dying and laughing with my LS friends, who cares if some of us are more leet than the others, we have fun teaching others how to play and have fun playing it too.
I will say this, they should at least have one charm/totem, per party, a battle. that should at least keep it balanced a little more.

I am close to 10 totems to finally get my hands on Ifrit Claws so I can punch a certain Morbol efficiently.

Now I am stuck waiting until 1.22, since it took me months to get these 10 totems without any DoW weapon drop. I'd be a fool to waste half of them.

Thank you SE.

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Originally Posted by elreed

I dont think the problem here is the drop rate, THE DROP RATE IS FINE

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No, I'm sorry, it's not. It's really not.

Out of 250 fights you got 4 weapons. There are people that have fought Ifrit 120 times and gotten nothing, or at best a couple totems. What you did was got lucky. Would you have those same people fight Ifrit another 120 times just to get the last few totems to get a weapon? That way they can fight him 240 times and get 1 weapon. Brilliant!

Increase the drop rate slightly for weapons. Increase the drop rate further for totems and keep the totem requirement at 10. The current system does not benefit new players, because once someone has fought Ifrit (or in the future other Primals) hundreds of times, they're not going to want to help someone another hundred times just to get the 1 or 2 weapons they want.

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Originally Posted by Pofo

If you get burnt out easy then maybe MMOs are not for you, you should stick to 1 player games that you can set on easy mode and beat in a single day.

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Yea, tell me at what point do you stop telling people to leave and play something else, considering their are about 10k players it won't be long before you are stood in Ul'dah on your own.

People always get burnt out from MMO's I did it in 11, I did it WoW and I have done it in this game. I still come back though, you may have worked your ass off to get 6/7 but other have worked much harder and got less.

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Originally Posted by Pofo

And yet people constantly insist on making it easier, people these days are afraid of a challenge it seems. If you can't get every drop on the first run, surely it needs to be fixed.

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Why can't you be realistic ?, nobody is asking for insta-drops on every F'ing mob.

It's really annoying when people like you come in here spouting nonsense, pretending to know what people are asking for when you have no frkkin clue.

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Originally Posted by Mireille

I don't like the drop rate, but this I do not agree with. This very system worked in dynamis for years even with a crappy drop rate, but we need a lot pass system in XIV that allows people to pass what they don't need to those who do. Its the lack of such a system that makes the drop rate so problematic. They should be able to fix it so items from chests go into the loot list, and not directly into inventory.

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Not really in Dynamis many people walked away with armour they didn't have jobs levelled to use it with mainly down to LS favouritism, /random and DKP.

A system that awards you for your fight a little at a time is the right choice, this way everyone is on equal footing, everyone has to work the same and everyone gets the same chance of the weapon they want.

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Originally Posted by elreed

in games like WoW (i played it for 2 to 3 years) right after a patch is released you only needed to wait 2 weeks to have everything,

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Anyone going for the highest tier (hardmode) class specific armour in WoW can not get it in 2 weeks, it takes months to farm the tokens and the artifact item to exchange for it.

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Originally Posted by elreed

If i wanted a game that i can finish in one week or weekend i wouldnt be playing an MMORPG i would be playing an offline RPG

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I don't understand this moronic over exaggeration, if you're going to make a point at least try to bring facts to the discussion. (No MMO is anywhere near completable in a weekend)

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So how many fights then should one have to do to get the ONE weapon they want? Not 7/7 just one.

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I've already said 100% token, so 10 fight for 1 Ifrit weapon, 20 for Moogle.

Thats 70 for 7/7 on Ifrit and 140 for 7/7 on moogle.

When garuda comes out reduce moogle to 10 and garuda can be the new time-sink content at 20.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

There are 2 sides to this crappy drop rate. (One person in my ls got the weapon he wanted on first win) But, since I can't solo Ifrit or Moogle, the reward shouldn't be a 'solo' reward. The group should decide who gets it, not the game. This is why I think the todem system needs to go. We're adults, we can handle sorting out who deserves what.

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Yup that's like saying I work in real life with other people but they should decide how much I get paid each week, don't be absurd.

More drop rate sux. More hard = more fun, u cant say hey at leats i got this great bow!! and u will say oh no, again the bow... how bored....
Kids looking for an easy game go play pokemon :)

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Originally Posted by Saga_Noah

More drop rate sux. More hard = more fun, u cant say hey at leats i got this great bow!! and u will say oh no, again the bow... how bored....
Kids looking for an easy game go play pokemon :)

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It's responses like these that are maddening.

Hard is one thing, I don't want a watered down MMO.

no weapons, 2 totems and 72 runs... thats just plain stupid.

is there a specific reason we still need more nutcharms than totems for weapons?
i think they balance each other out pretty well, tho for DD's ifrit's weapons still seem more useful.
anyways, 60+ wins on moogle and 9 nutcharms and mogfists+bow.
at this rate i'll probably just skip garuda, i already gave up on mog for its bad drop rates.

i'd rather welcome a 100% drop on charm/totem, or the possibility to put weapons into other players loot boxes.

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose

at this rate i'll probably just skip garuda, i already gave up on mog for its bad drop rates..

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This is basically how I feel, its pretty sad that people are being turned off content that isn't even available yet.

It says it all really.

The Reason people want to use totem to get weapon is cause not everyone has lvl 50 in classes. I remember when i got a Ifrits bow i wanted to punch someone cause my arc is fkin lvl 4 and I could not pass it to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Firon

The Reason people want to use totem to get weapon is cause not everyone has lvl 50 in classes. I remember when i got a Ifrits bow i wanted to punch someone cause my arc is fkin lvl 4 and I could not pass it to anyone.

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this is probably the most annoying thing with the way primal drops are handled. i've probably dropped at least 10 swords while our main tank has yet to get it. our bard still hasn't even gotten the bow, but the tank has dropped multiples of those. i'm not asking for increased drop rates or totems/nuts every run, but come on at least allow us to trade the item through the loot list just like the dungeons are.

I've done more than a fair share of Ifrit fights, and I had some luck (there's people in LS with FAR worse luck than mine), but I stopped doing Ifrit for over a month now. . . . Each time I got a duplicate or did 25+ runs for no drop at all I feel like SE was waving their fat middle finger in my face, so no thanks. I did Mog once only, to get the ingame achievement and that was it. Don't really want to force myself into doing something which feels like someone's making a complete fool of me.

Point being; time invested VS motivation + progress is at a complete disbalance. I don't need or want to have all weapons in a weeks time. I do feel like my free time is worth more though. . . .

I collected alot od DM to. It's just ridiculous! I think totems / Nuts should drop on a win and keep the number requirements the same. Allow party members to give weapons to others via the Loot list. Make the weapons exchangeable for seals and Able to turn into rare powerful materia and call it good .:cool:

Run with a static and pass tokens to each other. Granted this requires trust between pt members saying whether or not they have a token. You can probably scavenge 1-3 token per fight. When moogle first came out and a couple of ppl from my ls still needed ifrits bow it only took one night of running ifrit to get enough tokens for two bows.

The other thing I'll say about primal drop rates:

I could stomach the abysmal drop rates more if there was more than 3 things that drop; weapon, charm/totem,... And grade 5 dark matter? It's not like grade 5 dark matter is an uncommon resource, it's a common reward from lvl 40 leves, drops like candy from grade 5 gathering nodes. I have so much of it in storage that I have now taken to immediately vendoring any that shows up in my inventory.

If the primals had drops other than the weapons and charms/totems that made the fight at least feel a little more worthwhile it wouldn't be so frustrating. As it is, you either get lucky, or you basically get to feel like the game is laughing at you by giving you something that is completely worthless.